The Trinity

[SimpleMan77]

Then why mention the Father and the Spirit?

Every time someone was baptized in the name of Jesus, it was the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was the Everlasting Father according to Isaiah 9:6.

After Jesus ascended, He came back in spirit-form as the Holy Ghost (John 14:17-18).

The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Jesus (Colossians 2:9)

I say Matthew 28:19 is the most anti-Trinitarian verse in the Bible. Either

1)the men that Jesus personally trained purposely disobeyed Him, or

2) Matthew misunderstood Jesus and wrote it down wrong, or

3) they heard Jesus loud and clear, and knew that he was the one God, the Father of the Old Testament, the Son that was born at Bethlehem, and in whom the Father dwelt, and that He came back as the Holy Ghost to live in His people.

Which one is the reason you say that the Apostles all baptized in Jesus name (in light of Matthew 29:19)?


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[Squeaky]

I posted this as a response, but I'll put it out as a general comment.

God, in the Old Testament, went out of His way to declare, explicitly and repeatedly, that he alone was God. The Jews got the message loud and clear, to the point monotheism became THE defining theology if the nation. God's singleness of person wasn't something inferred from single pronouns, God went out of His way to push the nation that direction in their understanding.

It bothers me when "modern Hebrew scholars" look at the writings of the OT and claim to see multiple personal subsistences. I understand English better than a non-native speaker because I've been immersed in it, with all of its nuances and cultural subtleties, from birth. For someone to come along 2,000 years later and claim to find something that the real Hebrew scholars would have died to disprove is preposterous. All native Hebrew scholars agreed, God had one mind, consciousness, etc.

Another thing that disproves a Trinitarian understanding of the OT is the fact that God, knowing the Jews believed in one divine person, went out of His way to say "I created things by myself - there is none like me, with me, beside me, before me, after me, etc". If God knew that they were misunderstanding His nature, it is not His M.O. to push them over the edge and deeper into hard-core deception.

Both the Shema and the first commandment were engineered specifically by God to convey absolute singularity of will, person, center of consciousness, etc. The first commandment, which the NT attributes to The Father, says (paraphrased) "in your theology don't put any second person (literally) beside me, with me, or before my face"

It is far more likely that God, knowing He Himself was going to come in the flesh, and knowing it could get confusing, wanted to first leave no doubt when Jesus came that it was The Father in flesh. When someone came that was called God, he wanted no doubt that it was Him.

Again I reiterate the fact that Hebrews says the one speaking through the prophets is the one who has a son (only the Father can be referenced here).


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I said
You sound pretty good.

 

[Squeaky]

You sound like me friend.
Like the Apostle Paul, I have one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. My Lord has a God who sent him to guide us.

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I said
did you see my reply on pg 247?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

@SimpleMan77

The only thing I can see on the first page is the initial question, and the first 20 responses. iOS app breaks it into 20 responses per page.

I will gladly answer a poll question if someone wants to repeat the question.

Go to the link below using something besides the now deprecated TOL app, e.g., an actual web browser on your phone, laptop, etc. The iOS supports Safari, Chrome, Firefox, Dolphin, Opera Mini, and Ghostery web browsers, so park the use of the TOL app and open up a browser on your phone.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115654-The-Trinity

Cast your vote.

AMR

 

[Bright Raven]

Every time someone was baptized in the name of Jesus, it was the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was the Everlasting Father according to Isaiah 9:6.

After Jesus ascended, He came back in spirit-form as the Holy Ghost (John 14:17-18).

The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Jesus (Colossians 2:9)

I say Matthew 28:19 is the most anti-Trinitarian verse in the Bible. Either

1)the men that Jesus personally trained purposely disobeyed Him, or

2) Matthew misunderstood Jesus and wrote it down wrong, or

3) they heard Jesus loud and clear, and knew that he was the one God, the Father of the Old Testament, the Son that was born at Bethlehem, and in whom the Father dwelt, and that He came back as the Holy Ghost to live in His people.

Which one is the reason you say that the Apostles all baptized in Jesus name (in light of Matthew 29:19)?


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Jesus is not the Father.

Matthew 3:16-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Nor is Jesus the Holy Spirit.

John 16:7-11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

2 Timothy 2:15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

 

[patrick jane]

I answered you distinctly.

Now it's up to you to answer why you wouldn't choose to take the word of 12 men who spent around 20,000 waking hours each with Jesus, and were so committed to his teachings and intents that they would die for Him.

I said earlier it was the equivalent of someone today spending 39 years under a preacher, but I was terribly understating it. It actually is 12x that. All 12 men spent those 20,000 hours with Him, and every one of them understood Jesus to mean the same thing. All of them interpreted Matthew 28:19 as a commandment to baptize in His name.

Why look at modern understanding of one or two verses, instead of listening to the men who had a combined 240,000 hours listening to His instructions?


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Where do you get your numbers?

 

[Squeaky]

Every time someone was baptized in the name of Jesus, it was the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was the Everlasting Father according to Isaiah 9:6.

After Jesus ascended, He came back in spirit-form as the Holy Ghost (John 14:17-18).

The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Jesus (Colossians 2:9)

I say Matthew 28:19 is the most anti-Trinitarian verse in the Bible. Either

1)the men that Jesus personally trained purposely disobeyed Him, or

2) Matthew misunderstood Jesus and wrote it down wrong, or

3) they heard Jesus loud and clear, and knew that he was the one God, the Father of the Old Testament, the Son that was born at Bethlehem, and in whom the Father dwelt, and that He came back as the Holy Ghost to live in His people.

Which one is the reason you say that the Apostles all baptized in Jesus name (in light of Matthew 29:19)?


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I said
This one sounds pretty bad.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Judaism had no concept of God having a Son. While the Trinity had been known and taught long before Judaism evolved, the monotheistic battle of the Israelites against the multiple Gods of surrounding cultures left no room for a Triune deity in Hebrew Theology.

The truth that God has a creator Son who created this world was revealed in the life of Jesus.

I would reply that God revealed himself in deeper and deeper ways throughout salvation history. To Adam and Eve, God was just walking in the Garden. To Moses, God was an all consuming fire, and he reveled his pure existence: "I AM." To the Davidic Kingdoms God revealed in somewhat vague language who the Messiah would be. When the"Son" became man, the true nature of God, and more importantly WHO God is (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) was revealed. Man was ready for this, Adam was not.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

God is Trinity. That is a fact. To deny that fact is to deny WHO God is.

1) The Bible says there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19).

However:
A) The Bible says that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9)
B) The Bible says the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13)
C) And we all know the Father is God

How do we reconcile all of this? By saying that all three person exist as one being.
One being need not equate to one person. A cat or a dog is one being and NO persons. A bird or a fish is one being and NO persons. A human is one being and ONE person. God is one being and THREE persons. "Being" refers to what we are. "Person" refers to who we are. God, the Bible states, is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. WHO he is is three persons. WHAT he is is one God.

I said that the Bible says Jesus is God. Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: ** Kurios mou kai ** Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]**, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

 

[SimpleMan77]

Where do you get your numbers?

3 1/2 years of ministry (1,278 days) x 16 waking hours per day = 20,440 hours.


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[SimpleMan77]

@SimpleMan77



Go to the link below using something besides the now deprecated TOL app, e.g., an actual web browser on your phone, laptop, etc. The iOS supports Safari, Chrome, Firefox, Dolphin, Opera Mini, and Ghostery web browsers, so park the use of the TOL app and open up a browser on your phone.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115654-The-Trinity

Cast your vote.

AMR

I will have to log in on a regular computer. I used Chrome browser on my phone, and went to the non-mobile site, and it did show the poll, but still would not let me vote with the touchscreen interface.


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[SimpleMan77]

I said
This one sounds pretty bad.

Are you saying "this one sounds bad on the Bible" because you think it shows an inconsistency in Scripture?


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[Catholic Crusader]

3 1/2 years of ministry (1,278 days) x 16 waking hours per day = 20,440 hours.

Ministers in all denominations consider themselves to be ministers. And yet, they all teach contradictory and conflicting doctrines. The true minister is the man who has had hands laid upon him by an authentic successor of the apostles, endowing him with the charism that Christ once gave to those apostles, to teach and to baptise.

 

[SimpleMan77]

I would reply that God revealed himself in deeper and deeper ways throughout salvation history. To Adam and Eve, God was just walking in the Garden. To Moses, God was an all consuming fire, and he reveled his pure existence: "I AM." To the Davidic Kingdoms God revealed in somewhat vague language who the Messiah would be. When the"Son" became man, the true nature of God, and more importantly WHO God is (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) was revealed. Man was ready for this, Adam was not.

Why couldn't an omnipresent, uni-personal God show Himself as a fire to Moses, and still be God in Heaven at the same time?

The He could. A God that's big enough to listen to and care about 7+ billion people at one time could show up in 1,000 different visible forms to 1,000 different people at the same time if He desired.

It only takes 1 omnipotent, omnipresent God to do that.


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[SimpleMan77]

Ministers in all denominations consider themselves to be ministers. And yet, they all teach contradictory and conflicting doctrines. The true minister is the man who has had hands laid upon him by an authentic successor of the apostles, endowing him with the charism that Christ once gave to those apostles, to teach and to baptise.

I think you missed what that answer was in regards to. I was talking about how many hours the original Apostles spent with Jesus, being trained by Him.

My point is that the original apostles interpreted the command of Matthew 28:19 to mean that they were to baptize in the name of Jesus.

I made the statement that I'd rather take the interpretation of the Apostles, with their combined 240,000 hours being personally trained by Jesus than to trust the interpretation and understanding of some modern-day scholar who only has 115 pages of Jesus's biography to go off of.

Trinitarian theology MUST explain why the Apostles determined that baptizing in the name of Jesus obeyed Matthew 28:19

Or they can say the Apostles misunderstood or disobeyed.

Not a lot of choices here. Anyone care to explain?


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[SimpleMan77]

God is Trinity. That is a fact. To deny that fact is to deny WHO God is.

1) The Bible says there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19).

However:
A) The Bible says that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9)
B) The Bible says the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13)
C) And we all know the Father is God

How do we reconcile all of this? By saying that all three person exist as one being.
One being need not equate to one person. A cat or a dog is one being and NO persons. A bird or a fish is one being and NO persons. A human is one being and ONE person. God is one being and THREE persons. "Being" refers to what we are. "Person" refers to who we are. God, the Bible states, is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. WHO he is is three persons. WHAT he is is one God.

I said that the Bible says Jesus is God. Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: ** Kurios mou kai ** Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]**, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

Are you aware that the Bible says that the Father is the one who spoke in the OT through the prophets? The Father is the one who told Isaiah in Isaiah 44:24 "I made the heavens and the earth alone and by myself".

The New Testament came along and said that Jesus created them.

If both are true, then Jesus is the father who came down in the flesh as a man.


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[Catholic Crusader]

Are you aware that the Bible says that the Father is the one who spoke in the OT through the prophets? The Father is the one who told Isaiah in Isaiah 44:24 "I made the heavens and the earth alone and by myself"..........

The OT says that the LORD (i.e. YHWH) spoke to the prophets and Moses. The Lord is One, one being. But WHO he is is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. THAT is what the Bible says

 

[SimpleMan77]

The Trinity

The OT says that the LORD (i.e. YHWH) spoke to the prophets and Moses. The Lord is One, one being. But WHO he is is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. THAT is what the Bible says

Actually, it identifies him as the Father.

Hebrews 1:1-2
God, who... spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...

He says the God who spoke through the prophets has a Son.

If God here refers to one triune God in three persons, the Father, Son & Holy Ghost, then it could be read this way:

The triune God - Father, Son and Holy Ghost - who spake through the prophets, has spoken by His son.

If Jesus is the son of the triune God, then he is 1/3 His own daddy.


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[Rosenritter]

God is Trinity. That is a fact. To deny that fact is to deny WHO God is.

1) The Bible says there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19).

However:
A) The Bible says that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9)
B) The Bible says the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13)
C) And we all know the Father is God

How do we reconcile all of this? By saying that all three person exist as one being.
One being need not equate to one person. A cat or a dog is one being and NO persons. A bird or a fish is one being and NO persons. A human is one being and ONE person. God is one being and THREE persons. "Being" refers to what we are. "Person" refers to who we are. God, the Bible states, is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. WHO he is is three persons. WHAT he is is one God.

I said that the Bible says Jesus is God. Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: ** Kurios mou kai ** Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]**, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

And the current "CHAMPION" and Calvinist definer of "Trinity" (James White) says that all the cats in the world constitute one cat "BEING" and in this sense we are to understand that God is one God, just as all cats are one cat.

No, "Trinity" is not a fact. It's a very confused doctrine that's taught different ways by different people. It has the side effect of serving as a stumbling block to some that reject idiotic explanations (like from James White) or who see problems with the model from scripture.

It does serve as a convenient shibboleth for judgmental types like Ask Mr. Religion, however. It's their test to see if one will go along with anything, or if one will insist on evidence.

 

[keypurr]

I said
did you see my reply on pg 247?

No, what post #

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