Interplanner
Well-known member
It's ch 21.
In context it is all the detail about the DofJ and the return to judge
The DofJ happened, the final judgement did not. It was delayed.
Nothing here supports this being a gold plated wood throne for David.
ECT The Throne of David
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
It's ch 21.
In context it is all the detail about the DofJ and the return to judge
The DofJ happened, the final judgement did not. It was delayed.
Nothing here supports this being a gold plated wood throne for David.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Again, from the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:
"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).
Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly.Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:
"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).
Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:
"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).
You say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one.
According to you God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" His promises because your theology is based on the idea that God changed the throne from an earthly one into a heavenly one.
No.
Christ is not going to relinquish His Heavenly Throne to rule from an earthly throne.
The Heavenly Jerusalem is going to come here on earth, and the saints are going to rule from the same Throne.
No saints are promised to rule from an earthly throne--
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
LA
Interplanner
Well-known member
Unless the whole thing was about Christ's enthronement to start with, which it was. That is why Acts 2:30-31 is the final word: it is about what David foresaw. The enthronement that David foresaw was the resurrection of Christ.
It will help enormously if you sort out NHNE from something on earth. The present kingdom of Christ is 'unshakeable' (Heb 12) and continues on from now into the NHNE. There is no 'phase' when it is a Judaistic theocracy--for the very reasons that are given in Hebrews!
Likewise, Christ's reigning through tribes is the same as we know from Rev 21, which is also a matter of sorting out the NHNE from something on earth that is not there. 12 gates are named tribes and the new Israel has 'tribes' so to speak. But it is never conceived as being on this earth.
Finally, stop the earthly vs heavenly; those are not the categories. The kingdom or reign of Christ is now through the Gospel and all through the ages of eternity, we will be singing 'worthy is the Lamb' for the same Gospel, ie, singing 'Amazing Grace.' That reign or dominion happens wherever and whenever people are worshipping, believing and submitting to it. It never happens where there is disbelief. It never was about a administration building in Jerusalem on this planet.
Why are you never using the NT passages taught by Christ to the apostles about these things?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Your one pot meal'ism is muddy and satanicly blended
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Unlike you I quote them and actually believe them:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).
Since you have no place in your discredited eschatology for an earthly throne you must somehow pervert the Lord Jesus' words there.
Here we see a transition from an "earthly" kingdom to a "heavenly" one:
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" (1 Cor.15:24).
The Apostles were with the Lord Jesus for forty days while He tutored them about the things concerning the kingdom. And they knew that the Davidic kingdom would be restored to Israel (Acts 1:3,6).
Despite these facts you are sure that you are right about the kingdom and they were wrong!
You must think that the Lord Jesus was a terrible Teacher because, according to your ideas, after teaching the Apostles about the kingdom for forty days they did not even understand the most basic things about the kingdom!
Interplanner
Well-known member
He taught them what Peter (Acts 2:30,31) and Paul (Acts 15) said about David. He did not teach them your 2P2P myths. There is no future Davidic theocracy anywhere articulated in the NT.
The giving up of the kingdom means nothing on location. It is invading earth right now and has been since day 1 of the mission. It is of heaven, invading the earth, like his main prayer says. There will be no change in substance at the last day, only the level of success.
Of course I don't mean Mt 25 on using the NT about the OT. I mean the 50 or so places where Ps 2, 16 and 110 and Is 55 on David's transferred promises are mentioned.
Besides I already explained that the Mt 25 reigning with tribes has to cohere with Rev 21 where they are gates founded on apostles, not on 2P2P, not on Judaism, not on old covenant.
Speak clearly to the actual issues; don't just repeat victory laps to soothe yourself all over again.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If you are right about what the Lord Jesus taught them then why did they think that the Davidic kingdom was going to be restored to Israel?
You must think that the Lord Jesus was a terrible Teacher and even after forty days of teaching the Apostles about the kingdom that they still did not even understand the most basic things about the kingdom?
You live in a fantasy world and cannot separate reality from the fables in which you place your faith.
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
The irony...
Right Divider
Body part
There just ain't no reasoning logically with DingleBerry. He's just too far out there.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Placing 99% of this trust in his commentaries and only 1% in the Bible hath corrupted his mind.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If you are right about what the Lord Jesus taught them then why did they think that the Davidic kingdom was going to be restored to Israel?
You must think that the Lord Jesus was a terrible Teacher and even after forty days of teaching the Apostles about the kingdom that they still did not even understand the most basic things about the kingdom?
You live in a fantasy world and cannot separate reality from the fables in which you place your faith.
Right Divider
Body part
Yep, but he's not alone in these silly beliefs. TOL is swarming with them.
Interplanner
Well-known member
He certainly taught them nothing that matches 2P2P!
David foresaw the enthronement as being the resurrection and spoke of it. That is the official quote from Peter which means it just came from Christ. It is also why Ps 68 lies behind the 'ascension' language about Christ in Eph 4.
But I know that the plain meaning of Ephesians is lost to you all because it conflicts with 2P2P.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Just curious, then, who you think was sitting on David's throne after Zedekiah:
For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Jeremiah 33:17-22
If this was a literal promise, then even if one holds that the promise was one that Christ should fulfill, who was on David's throne between Zedekiah and (at least) the Hasmonean period? Even that doesn't take one all the way to Christ's advent...
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Before I address the verses which you quoted I need to understand what you mean when you speak of a promise which is not "literal." Do you mean that the promise will not be fulfilled in the way that it is stated to be fulfilled? Let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to his throne and kingdom:
"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).
Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:
"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).
The only way that I can imagine that the LORD's promise He made in regard to David's throne spoken of at 2 Samuel 7:12-13 cannot be taken literally is if He altered that promise. But the LORD said that He would not do that.
Perhaps you can explain why we shouldn't take the promise in regard to David's throne literally?
Thanks!
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nikolai_42
Well-known member
I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm merely asking how (on the premise that the promise is literal, earthly and irrevocable) you reckon the (earthly) throne of David to have been continually occupied since David was around.
The point was never that it would be simply continually occupied, but that there would come a day wherein it would be continually occupied righteously: a day when Israel would no longer be in apostasy, and under one apostate king or another; during such apostate times...
A time would come under a King who's heart was not only the heart of King David toward God; but the perfect heart of his everlasting heir: the Lord Jesus Christ...Himself.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
John 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou? 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour. 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Mosaic Covenant is now in abeyance even though it is described as being an "everlasting" covenant (Isa.24:5). The promise of someone always occupying the throne of David is also now in abeyance. But in the future the Mosaic Covenant will be in force once again and the Lord Jesus will sit upon the throne of David.