ECT The Throne of David

[Jerry Shugart]

From the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly.Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

Some say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one.

According to them God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" his promises because the teaching of some Christians is based on the idea that God changed the throne from an earthly one into a heavenly one.

Here the Lord Jesus speaks of sitting upon His throne when He returns to the earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

 

[Danoh]

Exactly :thumb:

 

[Interplanner]

From the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly.Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

Some say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one.

According to them God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" his promises because the teaching of some Christians is based on the idea that God changed the throne from an earthly one into a heavenly one.

Here the Lord Jesus speaks of sitting upon His throne when He returns to the earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Jerry,
it is stupid at this point to go over your favorite passages all over again. You must deal with those that totally clash with what you are saying:

Acts 2:30-31
13: (the blessings promised to David) in Isaiah.

There is no point in celebrating a victory when your underwear is showing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry,
it is stupid at this point to go over your favorite passages all over again. You must deal with those that totally clash with what you are saying:

Acts 2:30-31
13: (the blessings promised to David) in Isaiah.

You are the one who is clueless!

You must have your way even if it means that the LORD "altered" the promises which he made to David and changed the throne of David from an earthly throne to a heavenly one.

You cite Acts 2:30-31 as your evidence that you think proves that the LORD lied to David and you do not even know what those verses are saying. What is stupid is to continue to argue that the LORD did "alter" the promises which He made to David despite the fact that He said that He would not do that!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You are the one who is clueless!

You must have your way even if it means that the LORD "altered" the promises which he made to David and changed the throne of David from an earthly throne to a heavenly one.

You cite Acts 2:30-31 as your evidence that you think proves that the LORD lied to David and you do not even know what those verses are saying. What is stupid is to continue to argue that the LORD did "alter" the promises which He made to David despite the fact that He said that He would not do that!

It just means that the Heavenly Throne of Christ will be established on the earth.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

You are the one who is clueless!

You must have your way even if it means that the LORD "altered" the promises which he made to David and changed the throne of David from an earthly throne to a heavenly one.

You cite Acts 2:30-31 as your evidence that you think proves that the LORD lied to David and you do not even know what those verses are saying. What is stupid is to continue to argue that the LORD did "alter" the promises which He made to David despite the fact that He said that He would not do that!

Jerry it numbs your brain to do victory laps and say "you don't know what you are saying." Between you and Peter and me, we have to go with Peter, right? At least I hope so. Otherwise, we should stop here.

With that settled, Peter says that what David foresaw was Messiah's enthronement in the event we know as the resurrection.

So no matter what Jerry and IP and RD and STP and Danoh think, that is what David was talking about, and that is why everywhere you go among the apostles, Ps 2, 16 and 110 are used this way. The trilogy of Psalms 22-24 also supports this. 24 some say is Christ returning to heaven in triumph, the same as Eph 4:8 (Ps 68).

This is what Christ taught the apostles in the 40 day seminar between the resurrection and Pentecost.

Now connect these two points:
v31 "Seeing what was ahead, (David) spoke of the resurrection..." with
v34 "For David did not ascend..."

He clearly meant to switch to Messiah from David. That is the same thought in the one official, unhurried, apostolic sermon of Acts 13. "I will give you (Messiah) the blessings promised to David" from Is 55. And since Peter and Paul are unified in saying this is complete and fulfilled right now, we know it has nothing to do with the land, but rather with the mission of Messiah's message to the nations.

As for LA's point, yes, it 'comes' to earth finally but not in our future on this earth as we know. That is quite clear from Peter's complete statement in 2 Pet 3.

 

[Nick M]

Jerry,
it is stupid at this point to go over your favorite passages all over again. You must deal with those that totally clash with what you are saying:

So how do you explain the contradictions you mention?

 

[Interplanner]

From the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:

"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).​

Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly.Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).​

Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

Some say that God did "alter" His promise to David because the "throne of David" was changed from an earthly throne into a heavenly one.

According to them God did lie when He promised David that He would not "alter" his promises because the teaching of some Christians is based on the idea that God changed the throne from an earthly one into a heavenly one.

Here the Lord Jesus speaks of sitting upon His throne when He returns to the earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Another one of your built-in mistakes Jerry is that the designation earthly vs heavenly is a location. That's not how the proclamation of Christ as Lord comes across in the NT. I mean, he is there, but his value or relevance to the world is very definitely here and now. Paul goes with 'Jesus is Lord' as the simplest way to express EVERYTHING about the Christian message in I Cor 12. Where? EVERYWHERE. When? NOW.

You seriously need to destroy your categories and let the NT recreate them.

That is why I did the essay on NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE. Because that Eph 1 passage is saying it matters now, not just in the next age (which is not a 'millenium'). It says it matters now because the power that makes believers what they are was the same power which installed Christ as Lord above all titles, NOW, 1:20.

Likewise your use of Mt 25. You think it is future. Why? Look at Eph 1. He is glorified now. I Tim 3:16. He is glorified now. 1 Pet 1:11. He is glorified now, right after the sufferings. 2 Pet 1:17. He received honor and glory (the enthronement). It was the transfiguration, but what was he talking about as it happened? His "exodus" which was about to be 'fulfilled.' Lk 9. So the Father was reminding him what he stood to gain once 'his exodus' was accomplished.

We do not know why the 2nd coming did not take place right after the destruction of Jerusalem, but that is where we are. Nor did the apostles, except for the 'delay' clues of Mt 24, Mk 13 (the 4 options) and 2 Peter 3 saying it is so more can be saved.

God did not lie because it always was about Messiah, his reign, and his mission on earth (proclaiming his reign). Perhaps that is why David, smack in the middle of dedicating the temple, invites all nations to come and worship. Because that is where it was headed all along, and the new living temple of Eph 2 has the nations in it.

BTW, when will you ever accept what the NT says about these things? Are you aware that you never do?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As for LA's point, yes, it 'comes' to earth finally but not in our future on this earth as we know. That is quite clear from Peter's complete statement in 2 Pet 3.

In regard to "David's throne" we read that Gabriel told Mary the following:

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk.1:32,33).​

Since Gabriel says that God will give the Lord Jesus the throne of David then that can only mean that David's throne represents "Jesus' throne," a throne that will belong exclusively to Him. However, the following words of the Lord Jesus demonstrate that He is not now sitting in His own throne:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev.3:21).​

The Lord Jesus is not now sitting in His own throne,the "throne of David," but instead is sitting in His Father's throne!

This is so simple but since you have no place for an earthly throne for the Lord Jesus you can somehow trick your mind into believing that the throne of David is the Father's throne.

BTW, when will you ever accept what the NT says about these things? Are you aware that you never do?

Are these words of the Lord Jesus found in the NT or not?:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

I accept what the Lord Jesus said there because the kingdom will not be near at hand until He returns to the earth, as witnessed by His own words:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It just means that the Heavenly Throne of Christ will be established on the earth.

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

These verses are not speaking of the Lord Jesus already being "raised up" to sit upon David's throne. Instead, the words "raise up" is referring to the Lord's resurrection, as verse 31 indicates. The Greek word translated "raise up" is anistēmi and it does not carry the meaning which you want to place upon it.

Your interpretation of these verses contradict the very words of the Lord Jesus when He says that when He returns to the earth "then" He will sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

I have given my interpretion of the meaning of Acts 2:30-31 so it is your turn to give us your interpretation of the meaning of Matthew 25:31.

 

[steko]

Exactly :thumb:

Yes! Exactly! :thumb:

 

[Nihilo]

The throne is a chair or a seat for a king or sovereign. The reason for the seat is because they spend a lot of time listening to people talk to them. " Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool "

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The throne is a chair or a seat for a king or sovereign. The reason for the seat is because they spend a lot of time listening to people talk to them. " Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool "

That verse is speaking about the LORD's universal kingdom and throne, the same kingdom and throne which we see here:

"The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all" (Ps.103:19).​

That is not the same throne on which the Lord Jesus will sit when He returns to the earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Things which differ are not the same!

 

[Nihilo]

The throne is a chair or a seat for a king or sovereign. The reason for the seat is because they spend a lot of time listening to people talk to them. " Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool "

That verse is speaking about the LORD's universal kingdom and throne, the same kingdom and throne which we see here:
"The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all" (Ps.103:19).

That is not the same throne on which the Lord Jesus will sit when He returns to the earth:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).

Things which differ are not the same!

With which part of my post did you disagree, Jerry?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

​

With which part of my post did you disagree, Jerry?

I took an opportunity to use what you said about a throne in order to make a distinction between a heavenly throne and an earthly one. I did not say that anything which you said is in error.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

These verses are not speaking of the Lord Jesus already being "raised up" to sit upon David's throne. Instead, the words "raise up" is referring to the Lord's resurrection, as verse 31 indicates. The Greek word translated "raise up" is anistēmi and it does not carry the meaning which you want to place upon it.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The text is saying Christ now sits on the Throne promised, and Christ never changes Thrones from His Heavenly Throne to your supposed earthly one.

Your interpretation of these verses contradict the very words of the Lord Jesus when He says that when He returns to the earth "then" He will sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

I have given my interpretion of the meaning of Acts 2:30-31 so it is your turn to give us your interpretation of the meaning of Matthew 25:31.

It only means Christ sits on the Throne of judgment at some time after He returns to judge all nations.

The very destination of those judged makes it at the last Judgment not at His coming near the beginning of the thousand years.

You make things up.

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

That verse says absolutely nothing about the throne of David. The Lord Jesus is now sitting on the Father's throne and not His own:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev.3:21).​

The Father's throne is not speaking of the throne of David mentioned here:

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk.1:32,33).​

According to your irrational ideas the Lord Jesus is now sitting on the throne of David, the throne which The LORD God gave to Him, even though He is now sitting at the throne of the Father! Maybe the LORD God reneged on His promise to give the Lord Jesus the throne of David and decided to keep it Himself!!!

The very destination of those judged makes it at the last Judgment not at His coming near the beginning of the thousand years.

when the Lord Jesus begans to reign on the earth the unrighteous will be rooted out and will go to everlasting fire (Mt.25:41) and the righteous will inherit the kingdom (Mt.25:34). Only those who are born again will enter into the earthly kingdom (Jn.3:3).

Here we see that in the future the Lord Jesus will reign on the earth from the throne of David:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Jer.23:5-6).​

Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual enlightenment knows that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the FUTURE. Of course since you are unable to distinguish between the Father's throne and the throne of the Lord Jesus it is doubtful if you can even realize that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the future.

 

[john w]

Another one of your built-in mistakes Jerry is that the designation earthly vs heavenly is a location.

Translated:

View attachment 25383

 

[Interplanner]

Js wrote:
Here we see that in the future the Lord Jesus will reign on the earth from the throne of David:


Who is we?

It's about Christ and the Gospel, the KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which happens to be the same name he had when he met Abraham and Abraham saw his day, as Hebrews tells us re Melchi (King) -Zedek (of righteousness).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Who is we?

Those of us who actually believe that when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth "then" He will sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

That is because when He returns the kingdom will be near at hand:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30. When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.22:27-31).​