The Sabbath

[clefty]

There was no forgiveness and grace in the Mosaic Law. People died for committing sins against others. There was no forgiveness or grace, but retaliation. God told Israel that if they did not keep the letter of the Law, they would be cursed. And that is exactly what happened, time and again.

No grace? How about cities of refuge? No forgiveness? How about every time the sacrifice was made...as it was for sins they didn't even know they did...What mercy!

And of course they were punished...corrected...ironically stopping the sacrifices you claim were necessary as the even the temple was destroyed...

And yet not entirely as a remnant remained until the fulfillment...when in killing their messiah they released themselves of their vows...until death do us part...now they are cursed forever...covenant broken new established...same laws or are we free to kill fornicate steal etc?

No we have exact instruction as to what me must do...if we love Him...

And this it how it ends...Here are they that keep the commandments of God...not Jesus'...but His testimony...

 

[clefty]

There were no secrets in the Law of Moses. God said they were to keep them as written and no one was to add or subtract from it.

The Spirit of the Law is not "the secret things". I don't know where you get that from. You cannot get to God through the Mosaic Law.

Wow...a lot here to unpack but suffice to say we are never able to get to God...through anything...

He came to us...and comes to us...the obedient ones who know His voice...we must prepare ourselves to receive Him...do as He pleases and commands we do...

Mosiac law was not designed to get us to God...but to point out our continued need for Him

Deut. 29:29
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law

John 5:
38nor does His word abide in you, because you do not believe the One He sent. 39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me

What were those snakes teaching the people anyway?

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

 

[TweetyBird]

LOL you twist anything don't you?


It is all of Judea not just Jerusalem...

It says "then let those of Judea", not just Jerusalem, flee to the mountains...

Rome devoured/devastated/murdered Jews in that the entire area.

I notice you haven't responded to the writings I posted by learned men, fancy speaking scholars and doctorates of their insistence that Sunday keeping was outside the scripture and by the Church's tradition...

And yet here you are trying to insert and add something that is not there...

Or maybe you could have convinced them...

The churches "tradition" was to worship on the first day of the week from the first century, as witnessed to by the NT and writers from the 2nd century onward.

 

[TweetyBird]

Wow...a lot here to unpack but suffice to say we are never able to get to God...through anything...

He came to us...and comes to us...the obedient ones who know His voice...we must prepare ourselves to receive Him...do as He pleases and commands we do...

You cannot have a relationship with God through keeping the Mosaic Law.

Mosiac law was not designed to get us to God...but to point out our continued need for Him

It didn't do that, however, or Israel would not have failed so significantly and repeatedly.

Deut. 29:29
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law

What that verse states is that secret things belong to God, BUT the things revealed to Israel is the Law. God said the Law was in their mouths and on their hearts.

John 5:
38nor does His word abide in you, because you do not believe the One He sent. 39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me

In other words, the Mosaic Law testified to, pointed to Christ. He is the Finisher of it. There is no need for it, because now He is here. You need to post that verse in context. Please note, it's about Jesus, not Moses.

John 5
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Yes, that the OT was testifying of Him who had come. They pointed to Christ - He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life --- He who fulfilled all the Law and Prophets through His own blood on the cross, nailing the hand written ordinances that were against us to the tree. Jesus was not teaching the Mosaic Law to these men - He was preaching the Gospel to them, showing them the prophecies concerning Himself in the OT. The focus of the New Covenant is on Jesus Christ, not Moses and not on Israel, but one new man through the blood of Christ Jesus.

 

[TweetyBird]

No grace? How about cities of refuge? No forgiveness? How about every time the sacrifice was made...as it was for sins they didn't even know they did...What mercy!

Not hardly. We were not talking about this. You have gone on a bunny trail. We were discussing forgiveness towards OTHERS. The Mosaic Law gave the right for people to commit retribution - eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

And of course they were punished...corrected...ironically stopping the sacrifices you claim were necessary as the even the temple was destroyed...

I said nothing of the sort.

And yet not entirely as a remnant remained until the fulfillment...when in killing their messiah they released themselves of their vows...until death do us part...now they are cursed forever...covenant broken new established...same laws or are we free to kill fornicate steal etc?

Where is this found in Scripture, exactly?

No we have exact instruction as to what me must do...if we love Him...

And this it how it ends...Here are they that keep the commandments of God...not Jesus'...but His testimony...

You can't keep a testimony. You can't do the ritual laws. You can't keep the Sabbaths and feasts. And that is just the tip of the iceberg of what you can't keep from the Law of Moses. If you don't keep it all, as given, you are in disobedience, per God.

Are you keeping Passover as God gave it?

Num 9
And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, 2 Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season. 3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it. 4 And Moses spake unto the children of Israel, that they should keep the passover. 5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the Lord commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.

 

[marhig]

The Apostles of Jesus did not approve his application to join the Sect based on the fact that he had been a persecutor of the Nazarenes. So, they said that he could not be a disciple. But Paul did not apply to be a disciple but an apostle. And where did the term "disciple" come from? It is only obvious that they did not find any thing in him worthy the position of a disciple, let alone an Apostle. So, he was let loose in Jerusalem and he caused a havoc in Jerusalem preaching his own gospel that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected. (Acts 9:20; II Timothy 2:8) And he confessed that it was all according to his gospel. It means that there was another gospel being preached around aka the gospel of the Nazarenes in whose agenda those things preached by him about Jesus were not in the agenda of the gospel of the Apostles.

Paul caused havoc before he was converted not after, and he didn't preach his own gospel but the one gospel which is the gospel of God brought to us by Jesus who is the Christ. And Paul didn't make him the Christ, Peter was the first to see that Jesus was the Christ, and Jesus told him that he was blessed and that this revelation was from the father in heaven. All the apostles taught that Jesus was the Christ, not only Paul and Paul didn't make Jesus into the Christ, God did. He was full of wisdom and was full of the holy spirit anointed of God. And Jesus is raised and he is alive and living in and through his people those who are his body, those living by the will of God, they are his true church!

 

[Tattooed Theist]

I'm curious, due to the fact that I'm heavily involved in Atheist/Christian debate - How would you respond to "and then He rested." ?

God surely does not need rest, many claim that He is setting an example but that isn't consistent throughout scripture. God doesn't always set an example of what He commands - He just commands.

 

[beameup]

Paul caused havoc before he was converted not after, and he didn't preach his own gospel but the one gospel which is the gospel of God brought to us by Jesus who is the Christ. And Paul didn't make him the Christ, Peter was the first to see that Jesus was the Christ, and Jesus told him that he was blessed and that this revelation was from the father in heaven. All the apostles taught that Jesus was the Christ, not only Paul and Paul didn't make Jesus into the Christ, God did. He was full of wisdom and was full of the holy spirit anointed of God. And Jesus is raised and he is alive and living in and through his people those who are his body, those living by the will of God, they are his true church!

Do you just make this stuff up?

 

[beameup]

I'm curious, due to the fact that I'm heavily involved in Atheist/Christian debate - How would you respond to "and then He rested." ?

God surely does not need rest, many claim that He is setting an example but that isn't consistent throughout scripture. God doesn't always set an example of what He commands - He just commands.

I think that God has a lot more in common with man than most would like to think. He certainly enjoyed walking in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the day. Then considering that God took upon himself a body of flesh and blood, "speaks volumes".

 

[marhig]

Do you just make this stuff up?

Don't you understand that? Which part don't you believe?

 

[beameup]

Don't you understand that? Which part don't you believe?

It is "disconnected" from scripture. Did you have a "guru" or "mentor"/teacher?

 

[marhig]

It is "disconnected" from scripture. Did you have a "guru" or "mentor"/teacher?

So which part is disconnected from scripture?

 

[Ben Masada]

I'm curious, due to the fact that I'm heavily involved in Atheist/Christian debate - How would you respond to "and then He rested." ?

God surely does not need rest, many claim that He is setting an example but that isn't consistent throughout scripture. God doesn't always set an example of what He commands - He just commands.

HaShem is not like a man to need to rest. The allegory of the Creation account in Genesis was only the Jewish way to establish the commandment of the Shabbat. It means that Israel would work six days and stop on the seventh to observe the commandment of the Shabbat. Hence, it became the only commandment given as a sign between HaShem and Israel so that we might know that it is the Lord Who sanctifies us. (Ezekiel 20:12,20)

 

[Ben Masada]

Paul caused havoc before he was converted not after, and he didn't preach his own gospel but the one gospel which is the gospel of God brought to us by Jesus who is the Christ. And Paul didn't make him the Christ, Peter was the first to see that Jesus was the Christ, and Jesus told him that he was blessed and that this revelation was from the father in heaven. All the apostles taught that Jesus was the Christ, not only Paul and Paul didn't make Jesus into the Christ, God did. He was full of wisdom and was full of the holy spirit anointed of God. And Jesus is raised and he is alive and
in and through his people those who are his body, those living by the will of God, they are his true church!

No, Paul caused havoc when he was let loose in Jerusalem after he applied to join the Sect and was rejected. The field of his persecutions was not Jerusalem but Damascus. (Acts 9:1,2) The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach. So, he could not have given it to Paul because he was an outlaw. Now, if you read II Timothy 2:8, Paul confessed to his disciple Timothy that it was according to his own gospel that Jesus was from the lineage of David aka Christ and that he had resurrected. The Apostles of Jesus had no idea about such an anointing of Jesus and that he had resurrected.
More to that, Paul was preaching in Jerusalem the idolatry that Jesus was a son of God according to Matl 1:18, without a biological father. That's the havoc Paul was doing in Jerusalem which set the Jewish authorities on their heels after him. That's when James sent him back to Tarsus where he belonged; and Jerusalem was in peace for the next 14 years.

 

[TweetyBird]

sure it does...going to the source we can better understand how and why the Torah was taught or not...applied or not...and how and why the people were so deceived and amazed by His teaching

The Talmud is not the source of Jesus' teachings. It's anti-Christ. It's post Christ.

and here you are making similar assertions about another body additional texts...time to study not censure...test all things

There is no "body of additional texts" that is inspired. Only the Bible.

good stuff there that is...we can begin to see what was taught and what was not by the Pharisees and scribes and liars whose father was the devil...

Jesus did not teach the Law of Moses. The Pharisees taught additional traditions with hypocrisy, were additions to the Mosaic Law, that is why they were in rebellion. The Talmud is a continuation of those additional traditions that are considered superior to the Mosaic Law.

 

[TweetyBird]

No He didn't command the adulterous woman be stoned He taught rather mercy than sacrifice...

You are only proving my point. According to the Mosaic Law, an adulterer was to be stoned. So Jesus was not compliant to the Law. The point is not that He had mercy, but the Law itself, to which we are referring. David was also pardoned by God, but the Law itself still required that an adulterer be stoned.

A profound concept that the people were unaware of apparently...

Please explain.

No wonder He was hated by the leaders as to what the Law was really all about...

Jesus did not teach what the Law "was really all about". He taught a NEW commandment. His words, not mine.

They just dragged some woman outside of court and not according to due process of the Law and were immediately reminded that they were not pure enough to apply the law shed the blood...

Due process was at least two witnesses. The conditions were met. They brought her to Jesus, making Him the judge of the Law. He chose not to follow the Law.

And yes I am going to say He was keeping the Law still...and insisted our righteousness be beyond that of those that relied on works alone...

Jesus did not keep the Law. He was sinless and righteous. The Law was given to Israel so that they could be righteous and holy. It didn't work, because it was a carnal commandment.

Jesus cannot sin. He is above the Law of Moses, which is why He could teach something else. Jesus cannot sin, He is God. That is why He was sacrificed in our place and in the place of animals. That is anti-Law of Moses, and why many Jews refuse to accept Him as the Messiah. The Law states that no man can die for another man's sins. Jesus did not keep the Law on this major point.

He did not keep the Sabbath. He did His Father's work 7 days a week. He did not rest.

He taught the Jews to love others outside of Israel, which is why He told the story of the Good Samaritan. Jesus showed a NEW WAY, a NEW COMMANDMENT about loving others, NOT LIKE the Mosaic Law, by using a Samaritan [who were hated by the Jews] to prove that what He taught about compassion and love was outside the Mosaic Law.

Of course He kept it...He was to be the perfect unblemished Lamb the Law demanded...

The Law did not demand that a man be the unblemished lamb for sin. The Law demanded real literal four footed bleating lambs. God demanded that Christ would die. Jesus was the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world. Jesus did not need to prove Himself to anyone. He did not need man's witness. He was God-approved before He was born. He was born, Savior of the world. John spoke of Him as the Lamb who TAKES AWAY sin - when Jesus started His ministry. There is NO Scripture that states Jesus had to keep the Law in order to die for sin. It's just not there.

 

[TweetyBird]

I'm curious, due to the fact that I'm heavily involved in Atheist/Christian debate - How would you respond to "and then He rested." ?

It means that He ceased creating the creation.

God surely does not need rest, many claim that He is setting an example but that isn't consistent throughout scripture. God doesn't always set an example of what He commands - He just commands.

Agree with you on this.

 

[marhig]

No, Paul caused havoc when he was let loose in Jerusalem after he applied to join the Sect and was rejected. The field of his persecutions was not Jerusalem but Damascus. (Acts 9:1,2) The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach. So, he could not have given it to Paul because he was an outlaw. Now, if you read II Timothy 2:8, Paul confessed to his disciple Timothy that it was according to his own gospel that Jesus was from the lineage of David aka Christ and that he had resurrected. The Apostles of Jesus had no idea about such an anointing of Jesus and that he had resurrected.
More to that, Paul was preaching in Jerusalem the idolatry that Jesus was a son of God according to Matl 1:18, without a biological father. That's the havoc Paul was doing in Jerusalem which set the Jewish authorities on their heels after him. That's when James sent him back to Tarsus where he belonged; and Jerusalem was in peace for the next 14 years.

All the apostles taught that Jesus not was, but is the son of God, and he is and Jesus is the Christ, Paul is definitely an apostle he is very strong in God.

 

[Ben Masada]

All the apostles taught that Jesus not was, but is the son of God, and he is and Jesus is the Christ, Paul is definitely an apostle he is very strong in God.

Both are dead today and the verb must be used in the past, not in the present. What apostle was Paul, the 13th? According to the tradition of the time, the apostles of an ambulant Rabbi at that time were supposed to be 12 and not 13. So much so that when Judas got lost, Matthias was elected to replace Judas if you read Acts 1:26. So, what kind of an apostle was Paul? The apostle of the Gentiles? Even that kind he could not be because Peter was the one anointed to be the one if you read Acts 15:7. But that's all right. Since he himself claimed to be the apostle of the Gentiles, can you tell me when he decided to go to the Gentiles? I ask because all his life as a missionary, he never left the Jews in peace. And this from his first station in Damascus and until his last in Rome, always after the Jews. (Acts 9:1,2 and 28:17) Perhaps he thought that Gentiles were to be fished in the synagogues of the Jews? I wonder!

 

[marhig]

Both are dead today and the verb must be used in the past, not in the present. What apostle was Paul, the 13th? According to the tradition of the time, the apostles of an ambulant Rabbi at that time were supposed to be 12 and not 13. So much so that when Judas got lost, Matthias was elected to replace Judas if you read Acts 1:26. So, what kind of an apostle was Paul? The apostle of the Gentiles? Even that kind he could not be because Peter was the one anointed to be the one if you read Acts 15:7. But that's all right. Since he himself claimed to be the apostle of the Gentiles, can you tell me when he decided to go to the Gentiles? I ask because all his life as a missionary, he never left the Jews in peace. And this from his first station in Damascus and until his last
in Rome, always after the Jews. (Acts 9:1,2 and 28:17) Perhaps he thought that Gentiles were to be fished in the
synagogues of the Jews.

No they are very much alive, and Christ is in the hearts of all Gods true people. Christ by the spirit was in the prophets and he is in those who truly belong to God now. Jesus did have 12 apostles yes, but Paul was born out of time. And Paul wasn't against the Jews he talked against those who crucified Jesus, the Jewish leaders of the time. Thou shalt not kill means just that but they murdered Jesus who was innocent, knowing it was wrong before God, Paul himself persecuted Gods people for the Jewish leaders, but he repented and he was converted, I hope the rest who crucified Jesus repented too. You can defend them all you want, and blame Paul but the truth is they were underhand and devious and they were doing the will of Satan, murdering Jesus who was innocent and Paul spoke the truth. By the way, it says in the Bible that Jesus was to be a light to the gentiles, and Jesus himself preached in Samaria, Jesus told his apostles to go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature which includes the gentiles.

I know Paul is of God because I can hear the spirit of God in him. You will never hear until you accept Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah Ben, you just can't see it.