Read John 3:8. Why are people so afraid of the Bible not saying what they want it to say? That is rhetorical, it is not directed at you.
ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3
- Thread starter Nick M
- Start date
Read John 3:8. Why are people so afraid of the Bible not saying what they want it to say? That is rhetorical, it is not directed at you.
Flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit. They marvel at his simplicity and make it more complex.
The born of water, born of Spirit, etc., are the other passages there. But that is not what John 3:8 is talking about.
I do believe that what you are suggesting has Merritt. There is a reconciliation of truth here, that involves "Birth" and "Death".
Perhaps the theological brush being used in this matter is too "broad". I'm not even sure where all of this will lead, but somewhere there is reconciliation to what Nick and Jerry are saying. They are almost saying the same big picture, but the "details" are where the sever is.
I will take this as a fair push in a direction I was just encouraged to go.
You appear to be asserting that you see that aspect of "the law FOR righteousness" as having REMAINED in effect AFTER the Reurrection?
Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
For lack of a better word in my vocabulary, He seems to be like a "ninja."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I see no reason for believing that the meanings are different.
Do you think that the words "born again, "born of the Spirit," and "born of God" are all referring to the same birth?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If being born again is something which will happen in the future then why did Peter say the following in the present tense?:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Pet.1:23).
Right Divider
Body part
I believe that it's clear that the "born again" in John and the "born again" in Peter are not the same.
Some confuse Israel's INDIVIDUAL rebirth ON THE SPOT (upon said INDIVIDUAL Israelite's belief that Jesus was THEIR Prophesied Christ), with Israel's YET FUTURE, NATIONAL rebirth AS A NATION "in one day."
Back then, INDIVIDUAL Israelites were being reborn and "added to" said assembly, everyday.
Unlike Israel's yet future, NATIONAL rebirth, which will be "in one day."
INDIVIDUAL blotting out of sins, in contrast to their NATION'S yet future, NATIONAL blotting out of THEIR sins.
You are quiet the liar. You just exposed yourself. Well, I already pointed out you are false. Let's recap.
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
I was not denying what I said earlier.
I was pointing out that THAT passage is not talking about what the others are talking about.
You are simply a poor reader.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is not clear to me. Why is it clear to you?
Right Divider
Body part
I guess that you're a dictionary theologian.
I guess that answered his question - not :chuckle:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Jesus seems to be focused on explaining to Nicodemus that there is an earthly perspective (what Nicodmeus is seeing "we know that thou art a teacher come from God:") and a heavenly perspective.
John 3:10-13 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So he is talking about the need to "ascend" up to heaven (be resurrected) in order to see the kingdom of God. Man has been born into the earthly realm with a natural body, but has yet to be born into the heavenly real with a spiritual body.
Now whenever I think of how Nicodemus says, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
It reminds me of this.
1Cor. 15:35-36 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
In John 3, the Lord expects Nicodemas should already know what He is talking about without being born again.
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
In other words, based on the Law and the Prophets Nicodemas turns out not much of a master of.
For this here...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Was said to Nicodemas in light of his words to the Lord...
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
This here, then...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
...is the issue of who gets to receive entry into the Kingdom His miracles were a sign of - that He was the King of said Prophesied Kingdom.
Prophesied where?
In the Law and the Prophets that Nicodemas: as a supposed spiritual ruler and teacher of Israel; should have known of.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Luke 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. 7:17 And this rumour of him went forth throughout all Judaea, and throughout all the region round about. 7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Nicodemas should have known what the Lord was talking about...
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Again, this here...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Is the issue of this here...
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
For THEIR Kingdom is PHYSICAL...
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
In other words, based on the Law and the Prophets Nicodemas turns out not much of a master of.
For this here...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Was said to Nicodemas in light of his words to the Lord...
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
This here, then...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
...is the issue of who gets to receive entry into the Kingdom His miracles were a sign of - that He was the King of said Prophesied Kingdom.
Prophesied where?
In the Law and the Prophets that Nicodemas: as a supposed spiritual ruler and teacher of Israel; should have known of.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Luke 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. 7:17 And this rumour of him went forth throughout all Judaea, and throughout all the region round about. 7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Nicodemas should have known what the Lord was talking about...
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Again, this here...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Is the issue of this here...
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
For THEIR Kingdom is PHYSICAL...
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So do you think that the words "born again" used by the Lord Jesus mean something entirely different from the way that Peter used the same words?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why do you think that the meaning of the words "born again" as used by the Lord Jesus is entirely different from the meaning of them as used by Peter?
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, I do. I believe that Jesus' explanation of what He meant does not match with what Peter was expressing.