ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3

glorydaz

Well-known member
Christians have already been born of the Spirit (Gal.4:29).

Wait a minute. You're trying to pull a fast one on me. I don't think this verse is saying what you seem to be claiming.

Gal. 4:29 but as then he who was born according to the flesh did persecute him according to the spirit, so also now;​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Perfect tense, not present tense.

According to The Blue Letter Bible it is "present" tense. Are you saying that the words 'being born again" spoken by Peter is referring to something which will happen in the future? Are you saying that no one will be born of the Spirit until sometime in the future?

You can't get yourself too hung up on Greek tenses, for they do not mean the same as English tenses.Which is why we have scriptures saying we have been saved 2 Tim 1:9, and will be saved Rom 5:9-10.

The first is in regard to the salvation of the soul and the second to the "deliverance" from our earthly body unto immortal bodies which Christians will put on in the future.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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It's wonderful when we actually get to discuss things, isn't it? ;)
It thrills my soul!

I know one thing, every since I finally saw what Nick and STP were talking about, I've seen it everywhere.
I love to study with both of them!


I think there is more for me to find about it before I leave this world.
I have heard those (Jews) who say that when Christ returns He will explain every word and every jot and title, and even the spaces between the words!
That's gonna be some dandy bible study!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Wait a minute. You're trying to pull a fast one on me. I don't think this verse is saying what you seem to be claiming.

Gal. 4:29 but as then he who was born according to the flesh did persecute him according to the spirit, so also now;​

So are you saying that Ishmael persecuted Isaac according to the spirit?

According to the allegory it was Ishmael (born after the flesh) who persecuted Isaac (born of the Spirit and a child of promise)--and so also now.

So we can see that since Isaac was born of the Spirit that birth is not something which will happen in the future but what happens to everyone who believes.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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Do you think that there will be people in the earthly kingdom who will not be resurrected?
Sure. There will be folks in the kingdom that are still mortal and have not died physically yet. And folks can still be kicked out of the kingdom when Christ returns and restores the kingdom.
But Abraham, Issac, and Jacob have died and must be resurrected for others to be able to see and sit with them in the kingdom.
And not only those 3 will be seen, but all the prophets also.

If one chooses to make that kingdom a spirit kingdom somewhere besides earth, then where is it?
Is there a spirit kingdom up in heaven somewhere that some folks are kicked out of?

Some have claimed that this kingdom where Abe, Issac, and Jacob are is the paradise where the beggar Lazarus went when he died, while the rich man went to another place.
Lazarus was seen in the bosom of Abe. That position tends to refer to a reclining position (as in laying down or at least leaning back on), as those at the last supper. And they use that to support that the word "sit" in the verses about sitting with Abe, Issac, and Jacob is describing a reclining position.
But that hardly makes sense to me because I don't see anyone being kicked out of those places where Lazarus and the rich man were.


Lots to think about, and we should think about it all!
Thanks Jerry.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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Well, we're definitely getting closer to the grave with each passing day. Could it possibly be a promise?
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​
Yeah, it says they are sons of God NOW, but NOT YET .....
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
So are you saying that Ishmael persecuted Isaac according to the spirit?

I quoted a verse.

According to the allegory it was Ishmael (born after the flesh) who persecuted Isaac (born of the Spirit and a child of promise)--and so also now.

It doesn't say "born of the Spirit", and it's talking about his birth being by miraculous intervention...as you said, a child of promise. No more nor less than that.

So we can see that since Isaac was born of the Spirit that birth is not something which will happen in the future but what happens to everyone who believes.

No, Isaac was born as a result of God's intervention. I really don't think you can make the leap on this one, Jerry.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Peter doesn't say that it is promised that we will be born again but instead that we are already born again.



According to Peter being born again has already happened.

Has this already happened or is it future? Or is it a certain promise we accept by faith?

Eph. 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The reason you hold to your erroneous hybrid of Acts 9/Acts 28, is a simple one.

You are clueless of what the various rules of grammar are, and how intended meaning is communicted by words, through said rules.

It is why you have turned the KJV into an idol, and by that, have so made it of none effect.

The translators were well aware of what you are clearly not.

That because some rules of Grammar differ in Hebrew, and in Aramaic, and in THEIR EARLY Modern English, they would first have to strive to ever keep those rules in mind.

This is why you and yours screw up on various passages just like the 28ers do.

You fail to consider why one is taught rules of Grammar up until fourth year of High School.

This is why both your wording and your reading is so poor, Nick.

Put your Bible away for awhile and go back to a good primer on rules of Grammar.

There is no fool like a self-righteous one.
I almost pity your ignorance, Danoh, but, alas, I have no sympathy for the hypocrite.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Bob Hill said:
What is the day of the Lord? It is described as Jacob’s trouble in Jer 30:5-31:1 For thus says the LORD: We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, says the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from your neck, and will burst your bonds; foreigners shall no more enslave them. 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up for them. 11 For I am with you, says the LORD, to save you; though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, and will not let you go altogether unpunished.

It is a time when God takes vengeance on the ungodliness of this world and wrath upon His people. It will be closed by the momentous second coming which is the great and notable day of the Lord. Luke 21:20-28 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

The seond coming is described as the great and awesome day of the LORD. It will come right after the tribulation. The tribulation is described briefly in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:7-9,15,16,21,22,27,29,30,33,34,36-41 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My names sake. 15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake those days will be shortened. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near; at the doors! 34 Assuredly , I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

A conditional particle, an, occurs in this statement in verse 34.[amhn legw umin oti ou mh parelqh/ h genea auth, ew" an panta tauta genhtai.] This would make the till statement conditional.

36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Acts 2:19-20 I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

Mk 13:13,14,19,24-26,30 And you will be hated by all for My names sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 So when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 30 Assuredly , I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place [amhn legw umin oti ou mh parelqh/ h genea auth, mecri ou panta tauta genhtai]. There is no conditional particle, an, in this statement. But comparing this statement with the Mat 24:34 statement, there should be room to interpret this statement as more conditional than it appears.

Many will be martyred in the tribulation.

Rev 7:9-15 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

From the Old Testament prophets, we can see that the day of the LORD includes the tribulation.

Isa 2:10-21 Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall come upon everything proud and lofty, upon everything lifted up; and it shall be brought low; 13 Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, And upon all the oaks of Bashan; 14 Upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up; 15 Upon every high tower, and upon every fortified wall; 16 Upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all the beautiful sloops. 17 The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; The LORD alone will be exalted in that day, 18 but the idols He shall utterly abolish. 19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily. 20 In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver and his idols of gold, which they made, each for himself to worship, to the moles and bats, 21 to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the crags of the rugged rocks, from the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

Isa 13:6-13 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, every man’s heart will melt, 8 and they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth will move out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts and in the day of His fierce anger.

Other wrath verses. Rom 5:9; Rev 6:16,17; 12:12; 15:1,7; 16:1

The day of the LORD is also the time of the Gentiles. But their time will be cut short.

Eze 30:2,3 Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Wail, woe to the day! 3 For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.

The day of the LORD must cover a period of time to fit the descriptions in the prophets.

Joel 1:14-20; 2:1-3,11; 3:12-17 Consecrate a fast, Call a sacred assembly; Gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry out to the LORD. 15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty. 16 Is not the food cut off before our eyes, joy and gladness from the house of our God? 19 O LORD, to You I cry out; For fire has devoured the open pastures, and a flame has burned all the trees of the field. 20 The beasts of the field also cry out to You, for the water brooks are dried up, and fire has devoured the open pastures. 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, . . . 3 A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them. 11 The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; Who can endure it? 3:12 Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. 13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow; For their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness. 16 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel. 17 So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again.

Amos 5:17-20 In all vineyards there shall be wailing, for I will pass through you, says the LORD. 18 Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good is the day of the LORD to you? It will be darkness, and not light. 19 It will be as though a man fled from a lion, and a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him! 20 Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?

Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.

Zep 1:7-2:5 Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; for the day of the LORD is at hand, for the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests. 13 Therefore their goods shall become booty, and their houses a desolation; They shall build houses, but not inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards, but not drink their wine. 14 The great day of the LORD is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of devastation and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lords wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy, for He will make speedy riddance of all those who dwell in the land. 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together, O undesirable nation, 2 before the decree is issued, or the day passes like chaff, before the Lords fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the Lords anger comes upon you! 3 Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of the Lords anger.

Zec 13:8-14:17 And it shall come to pass in all the land, says the LORD, that two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, but one- third shall be left in it: 9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, this is My people; And each one will say, The LORD is my God. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day which is known to the LORD; Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be; The LORD is one, and His name one. 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

Mal 4:1-6 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. 6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

The Rapture/Departure will take place before the day of the Lord/Christ.

2 Th 2:1-13 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come is now present [enesthken should be rendered as pointing to strictly present time - cf. Moulton & Milligan and Rom 8:38; 1 Co 3:22; 7:26; Gal 1:4; 2 Ti 3:1; Heb 9:9 complete concordance]. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away the departure [h apostasia The definite article [h] refers to His coming and our departing in 2:1 and 1 Th 4:13-18.] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

Notice that the man of sin of Dan 12:11 is revealed right after the departure.

Dan 11:27-31; 12:11 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Mat 24:15-21 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The body of Christ has the hope of being delivered from the wrath to come, because we were not appointed to it like Israel was. We are the body of Christ. We are part of the mystery program. Our rapture is a mystery.

1 Th 1:10; 5:9 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Co 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.

Danoh has studied Greek and the New Testament far more than Bob Hill did. As you can read for yourself. I only posted this as an example of one who studies and does not boast in himself.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sure. There will be folks in the kingdom that are still mortal and have not died physically yet.

Yes, those in their mortal bodies will enter the kingdom and they must be "born again" in order to enter. So their being "born again" does not have anything with entering the kingdom in a resurrected body.

Right?

Lots to think about, and we should think about it all!
Thanks Jerry.

You are always so gracious and we should all strive to emulate you.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I quoted a verse.

I think that the following translation gives us a better sense of what is being said:

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now"
(Gal.4:29; KJV).​

I think that makes more sense than the translation which you provided because if that translation is correct then we must believe that Ishmael persecuted Isaac according to the spirit. That makes no sense.

No, Isaac was born as a result of God's intervention. I really don't think you can make the leap on this one, Jerry.

We can see that the first birth spoken of is in regard to the flesh. So in order to maintain a logical consistency we have to understand that being born after the Spirit must refer to what the Lord Jesus referred to here:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"
(Jn.3:6-7).​

As I said previously, Peter does not place being born again in the future.

Has this already happened or is it future? Or is it a certain promise we accept by faith?

Eph. 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

Are you arguing that this verse is referring to our resurrection? Otherwise, I can't understand why you even quoted it. Could you please explain?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I think that the following translation gives us a better sense of what is being said:

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now"
(Gal.4:29; KJV).​

I think that makes more sense than the translation which you provided because if that translation is correct then we must believe that Ishmael persecuted Isaac according to the spirit. That makes no sense.

You're right, and it took me forever to figure out where I got that quote. I was looking to see how Young's interpreted it and I ended up copying it from there. I've read it so many times now, my eyes are crossing.



We can see that the first birth spoken of is in regard to the flesh. So in order to maintain a logical consistency we have to understand that being born after the Spirit must refer to what the Lord Jesus referred to here:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"
(Jn.3:6-7).​

I still can't see it. Ishmael was born after the flesh in one way only (the natural way - without any intervention from God), and Isaac was born, not "of the Spirit", but through the Spirit's intervention. He was actually the heir of promise as Abraham's natural heir.

As I said previously, Peter does not place being born again in the future.

And you may very well be correct, Jerry. I'm still looking at the chapter in it's entirety.


Are you arguing that this verse is referring to our resurrection? Otherwise, I can't understand why you even quoted it. Could you please explain?

I'm not really arguing anything. I was just asking if you thought it was present or future.

I was wondering if you thought we are actually seated with Christ in the heavenlies now, as we often say, or if that's speaking of a certain future fact.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Are you trying to argue that no one was born again or born of the Spirit at the time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth despite what He said here?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​
No, I'm saying that "born again" in John 3 does NOT mean what you think that it means.

Previously the Lord had been speaking of an individual's regeneration but He now begins to speak of the nation of Israel's regeneration. The Lord shifts from using the second person "singular" pronoun "you" to the second person "plural":

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:7-8).

A footnote in the NIV at verse seven says, "The Greek is plural."

Nicodemus still not understand so he asked, "How can these things be?"

By the Lord's reply we can understand that Nicodemus should have been aware of some truth in the OT Scriptures which spoke of a regeneration by the Spirit: "Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knoweth not these things?" (v.10).

Nicodemus should have been aware of the prophecies that speak of the blessings of the New Covenant promised to the nation of Israel. In the thirty-sixth chapter of Ezekiel we see "water" being sprinkled on that nation and the Lord putting His Spirit within that nation (Ez.36:25,27).

Then in the very next chapter we see verses describing the regeneration of the nation of Israel, and these same verses use similar language about the "wind":
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army..." (Ez.37: 9-10).​

The Lord Jesus was employing a "type" in regard to the regeneration of Israel to illustrate the truth about an individual's regeneration
You do you think that the EVERY ONE of verse 8 applies only to Israel?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Paul said we in Christ are a new creation. That isn't what the Lord said to Nicodemus. He said you have to be born twice. There are 2 important things here, and they are almost always not covered, unless StP steps in and points it out to you.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?


By the way, Nicodemus's follow up question was spot on. He was openly mocked by the Lord Jesus Christ, whom was a genuine truth smacker. He was a teacher of Israel (like Interplanner) and knew not those things. The Lord Jesus Christ apeared from behind locked doors, vanished from their sight. They didn't know where he came from or where he went.

Let's debate. John 3:16 is often rolled into it.




So...what are the two things? You really need to learn to communicate. Anyone can paste. And no I am not a teacher of Israel. Quite the opposite.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I still can't see it. Ishmael was born after the flesh in one way only (the natural way - without any intervention from God), and Isaac was born, not "of the Spirit", but through the Spirit's intervention. He was actually the heir of promise as Abraham's natural heir.

Let us look at the verse again and pay particular attention to what is in "bold":

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now" (Gal.4:29).​

At the time when Paul wrote those words there were some people that he described as being "born after the flesh" who were persecuting some people that he described as being "born after the Spirit." Just as Ishmael (born after the flesh) persecuted Isaac (born after the Spirit) in the OT times in Paul's days there were some Jews (who were born after the flesh) who were persecuting the Jewish Christians (who were born after the Spirit). And yes, the birth of the Spirit which the Jewish Christians experienced was a supernatural birth that ever believer experiences. But it was not limited to just Isaac.

If your ideas are correct then how do you explain the words "even so it is now" ? Who in Paul's day would Paul be referring to as someone that was "born after the Spirit" and was being persecuted by someone "born after the flesh"?

I was wondering if you thought we are actually seated with Christ in the heavenlies now, as we often say, or if that's speaking of a certain future fact.

I believe that when Paul speaks of the Christian being seated in heavenly places with the Lord Jesus he is referring to the fact that the believer is totally identified with Christ. Our life is hid with Christ in God (Col.3:3). What better way could Paul explain our position "in Christ" (in the Body of Christ) than that? On the other hand, at other places Paul speaks of our "walk" as Christians which is referring to our actual existence upon the earth.
 
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