The Origin of the Myth that the Chuch is 'Spiritual Israel'

[Epoisses]

Nice try doofy...

It's "Wild Olive Tree" Rm. 11:17

Thus the Olive tree is the differentiated from the "Wild Olive Tree"

Gentiles were taken from the wild olive tree of the world and idolatry.

The tree supports the branches and you still fail to grasp that.

 

[Epoisses]

The problem with analogies is that people tend to ask questions and read into it far beyond that which the analogy is meant to address. The analogy was not meant to deal with salvation, nor was it meant to deal with the Abrahamic covenant. The analogy was meant to deal with the problem of the Jews (Israelites)and the Gentiles both arguing that one was better than the other. Replacement Theology was birthed by those who had either ignored Paul's analogy, forgotten it, or read more into it than what it's original purpose was. It is extremely dangerous to take analogies out of context or to try to use them for another purpose other than that which they were originally intended.

I blame myself because I used "family of God" where I actually meant to say grace of God. Paul was addressing the family of God with the analogy. I apologize for my mistake.

I blame you and all Dispy's for being brain-washed by your false prophet John Darby. All protestant Christians believed in Spiritual Israel until he came along. And Calvinists and Lutherans who reject Darby hands down still believe in Spiritual Israel aka the church. The church is the Israel of God whether you like it or not.

 

[musterion]

I smell a dirty sock (puppet).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The point being he wasn't born with the name Israel!!!

It was given to him as a gift after his night of trouble with the angel of the Lord.

You have to wrestle God to get the name of Israel.

So what is the point you are making in regard to the subject of this thread?

The church is the Israel of God whether you like it or not.

Proof?

 

[Epoisses]

So what is the point you are making in regard to the subject of this thread?

The name of Israel is not ethnic or of the flesh which is the whole point of the book of Romans. Some of us read all the chapters not just 11.

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth - Rom. 10:1-4

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I blame myself because I used "family of God" where I actually meant to say grace of God. Paul was addressing the family of God with the analogy. I apologize for my mistake.

How can those who are saved by grace be "cut off" from that grace?

I think that the solution to identity of the Olive Tree rests on the nature of the Olive Tree in Israel.

"The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, [and] of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken" (Jer.11:16).​

The LORD's people are to bear fruit for the LORD. In order to do that his people must "serve" Him. There are many ways by which a believer can bear fruit for the LORD. One was is by declaring the "good news" of Christ that bears fruit for the LORD.

The Jews who did not serve the LORD in one way or another in order to bear fruit were cut off from the Olive Tree because they were not bearing fruit. The believing Gentiles who were bearing fruit were grafted into the Olive Tree.

 

[Epoisses]

How can those who are saved by grace be "cut off" from that grace?

I think that the solution to identity of the Olive Tree rests on the nature of the Olive Tree in Israel.

"The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, [and] of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken" (Jer.11:16).​

The LORD's people are to bear fruit for the LORD. In order to do that his people must "serve" Him. There are many ways by which a believer can bear fruit for the LORD. One was is by declaring the "good news" of Christ that bears fruit for the LORD.

The Jews who did not serve the LORD in one way or another in order to bear fruit were cut off from the Olive Tree because they were not bearing fruit. The believing Gentiles who were bearing fruit were grafted into the Olive Tree.

So how will the Jews be saved after the church is raptured out? By unmerited grace or keeping the law?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The name of Israel is not ethnic or of the flesh which is the whole point of the book of Romans. Some of us read all the chapters not just 11.

Are Paul's words here not speaking of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

Let us look at the following passage which speaks of the Covenant which Paul made reference so we can determine the identity of who makes up the "Israel" he mentions:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

In this passage we can see that the "fathers" of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their "fathers" broke the LORD's covenant and it was the physical descendants of Jacob who did that. Since their fathers were the physical descendants of Jacob then they are as well.

So these verses prove that sometime in the FUTURE all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be saved. Therefore, the only "spiritual Israel" found in the Bible is this one which is populated by the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So how will the Jews be saved after the church is raptured out? By unmerited grace or keeping the law?

By grace:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn" (Zech.12;9-10).​

 

[Epoisses]

Converted Jews fall into the house of Judah and converted Gentiles fall into the house of Israel.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Rom. 9:24-26

And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God....And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. Hosea 1:6-8;2:23

Paul uses the house of Israel that was cast off by God as a reference for the Gentiles.

 

[Zeke]

When some of the early church leaders saw Jerusalem destroyed in the second Jewish revolt (A.D. 132-135) and the Jews excluded from Jerusalem upon penalty of death, they reasoned that the nation of Israel was apparently beyond any hope of recovery. Tertullian wrote:

"The Jews are scattered wanderers, excluded from their own land of Judea; this shows how they erred and forsook their calling, and how Judaism has been, therefore, superceded by Christianity" (The Apology).​

These Gentile converts saw the condition of Israel, destroyed and seemingly beyond any hope of recovery, and reasoned that they would never be restored, in spite of the clear Revelation from God that ethnic Israel has not been cast away. Tertullian was not alone in this belief, as witnessed by the words of Justin Martyr in his conversation with the Jew Trypho:

"For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even at the present time. And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us" (Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, Chapter 82).​

These men ASSUMED that God had cast away Israel. Their false belief was not based on the Scriptures but instead on what they saw and reasoned had happened.

Noted church historian W.H.C. Frend observes that with this second fall of Jerusalem, "all hope of a restored Temple and Holy City now faded, and the Jews were thrown on to the defensive. The reference of the prophecies to an earthly restoration of the Jewish kingdom and Messiah in the form of a deliverer from Rome rule had to be abandoned" (Frend, "The Old Testament in the Age of the Greek Apologists A.D.130-180," Scottish Journal of Theology, 26).

Because the early Gentile Christians did not believe that national Israel would be restored they were left with a problem. How could they explain the following verses:

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east...Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev.7:2-4).​

According to their ideas the reference to "Israel" here could not be speaking of a restored nation of Israel so they reasoned that these verses must be in respect to the Church, which is His Body. They assumed that God had forever cast away national Israel, and the church had taken her place. Cyprian stated his belief that "the Jews, according to what had been foretold, had departed from God, and had lost God's favor while the Christians succeeded to their place" (Cyprian, Treatise 12-Three Books of Testimony Against the Jews).

So we can see that some of the people in the early church put what they saw with their eyes ABOVE what the Scriptures actually say. That explains how the false teaching that the Church is "spiritual Israel" came into existence.

Yet the dogma that spawned your belief system wasn't relevant until the third century. Many held to mystic and allegorical methods of interpretation before the carnal Christ was relevant.

Sent from my A462C using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Danoh]

So how will the Jews be saved after the church is raptured out? By unmerited grace or keeping the law?

By BELIEVING The Law...

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That is talking about as many of His Own (in other words, Israelites) as Believed on Him per Moses and Israel's Prophets...

John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

He Himself said as much...

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The Spirit later also asserting as much through the Twelve...

Acts 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

There is that and its' pending Wrath PRIOR TO its' "times of refreshing"...TEMPORARILY interrupted...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So how will the Jews be saved after the church is raptured out? By unmerited grace or keeping the law?

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Converted Jews fall into the house of Judah and converted Gentiles fall into the house of Israel.

No, we can see that in the future both the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

In this passage we can see that the "fathers" of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the ethnic, physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their "fathers" broke the LORD's covenant and it was the physical descendants of Jacob who did that.

So these verses prove that sometime in the FUTURE all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be saved.

 

[Epoisses]

No, we can see that in the future both the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

In this passage we can see that the "fathers" of both the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the ethnic, physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their "fathers" broke the LORD's covenant and it was the physical descendants of Jacob who did that.

So these verses prove that sometime in the FUTURE all of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be saved.

Paul quoted Hosea who was talking about the house of Israel and applied it to the Gentiles. Dispy's are so dumb! The physical house of Israel didn't exist in the 1st century so how could it exist at the end of time? The Gentiles were brought in to fill the ranks aka the Israel of God. It's quite possible that he will bring many Jews to repentance in the last days to restore the house of Judah. The houses are spiritual under the new covenant and ethnic under the old covenant.

 

[Crucible]

"The Jews are scattered wanderers, excluded from their own land of Judea; this shows how they erred and forsook their calling, and how Judaism has been, therefore, superceded by Christianity" (The Apology).

That is exactly what the Jews have done

THROUGH THE ENTIRETY OF THE PAST 2000 YEARS

The Jews have left Jerusalem, you can hinge on their 1940 something return all you want, but they are otherwise all across the world- largely non-practicing- as white as can be- and as a misery to Christian culture as one can be.

They are not in Jerusalem preaching their Messiah, they are in your Supreme Court ratifying gay marriage, or in your media debasing the Christian unit.

Stop making things up, Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is exactly what the Jews have done

THROUGH THE ENTIRETY OF THE PAST 2000 YEARS

The Jews have left Jerusalem, you can hinge on their 1940 something return all you want, but they are otherwise all across the world- largely non-practicing- as white as can be- and as a misery to Christian culture as one can be.

They are not in Jerusalem preaching their Messiah, they are in your Supreme Court ratifying gay marriage, or in your media debasing the Christian unit.

Stop making things up, Jerry.

I am not making anything up. Here is what the LORD says about the Jews:

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezek.36:24-27).​

Do you deny that the LORD will do that?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul quoted Hosea who was talking about the house of Israel and applied it to the Gentiles. Dispy's are so dumb! The physical house of Israel didn't exist in the 1st century so how could it exist at the end of time?

How could you deny the truth which we find at Jeremiah 31:31-34?

You have been shown the truth about what is revealed in that passage but you refuse to believe that truth!

And then you have the gall to call dispensationalists dumb!

 

[Crucible]

I am not making anything up. Here is what the LORD says about the Jews:

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezek.36:24-27).​

Do you deny that the LORD will do that?

They are the Jews who accepted the Messiah, and who recognize that Moses received all that God promised.

They are the ones who brought us Christianity :AMR:

And the rest went on and hated their Messiah.
They all think you're a heretic, bro lain:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

They are the Jews who accepted the Messiah, and who recognize that Moses received all that God promised.

No, the LORD is speaking about the "house of Israel" and not just a remnant:

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land" (Ezek.36:22-24).​

 

[Crucible]

No, the LORD is speaking about the "house of Israel" and not just a remnant:

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land" (Ezek.36:22-24).​

And so we loop right back around.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Ezekiel spoke to those who observe, brother. It's prophesy.

lain: