Further "junk mail" will be forthcoming from Caino!
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The Late Great Urantia Revelation
- Thread starter Caino
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The trolls are out early today :wave:
The "Chazan" was the leader of services as well as responsible for other duties in the temple. The word "cantor" doesn’t appear in the UB, had the amateur theologians paid closer attention to the words of the UB as well as Lon's own link they would see that the common chazan predates the evolution of the Cantor of the Geonic period.
Jewish Encyclopedia
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4276-chazan
ḤAZZAN (Hebrew, V06p284001.jpg; Aramaic, V06p284002.jpg):
Communal official. The word is probably borrowed from the Assyrian "ḥazanu," "ḥazannu" (overseer, director; see Delitzsch, "Assyrisches Handwörterbuch," p. 272a; connected with the Hebrew V06p284003.jpg, meaning "vision"). "Ḥazanuti" (plural of "ḥazanu") in the El-Amarna tablets designates the governors who were stationed by Egypt in the subjugated cities of Palestine (Winckler and Zimmern, "Die Keilinschriften und das Alte Testament," pp. 194, 196, 198).
In the Talmud the term "ḥazzan" is used to denote the "overseer": (1) of a city; "ḥazzane demata," according to B. M. 93b (see Rashi ad loc.; Ket. 8b; 'Ar. 6b); (2) of a court of justice; at his order the sessions opened (Yer. Ber. iv. 7d); he also executed judgment on the condemned (Mak. iii. 12; comp. Yer. Sanh. v. 23a); (3) of the Temple; he had charge of the Temple utensils (comp. Arabic "khazin" = "treasure-keeper") and aided the priests in disrobing (Tamid v. 3; Yoma vii. 1); (4) of the synagogue ("ḥazzan bet ha-keneset"; see Soṭah vii. 7, 8; Suk. iv. 4); he brought out the rolls of the Torah, opened them at the appointed readings for the week, and put them away again (Soṭah vii. 7-8; Yer. Soṭah vii. 21d; Yer. Meg. iv. 15b, 75b); with trumpet-blasts he announced the beginnings of Sabbaths and holy days from the roof of the synagogue (Tosef., Suk. iv.); he attended to the lamps of the synagogue (Yer. Ma'as. Sh. 56a); he accompanied the pilgrims that brought the firstlings to the sanctuary of Jerusalem (Tosef., Bik. ii. 101). His place was in the middle of the synagogue, on the wooden "bimah" (Yer. Suk. v. 55b), and, according to Tosef., Meg. iii., beginning (see Mordecai ad loc.), he might, at the desire of the congregation, read aloud from the Torah, his ordinary duties then devolving temporarily upon another. It seems also to have been the duty of the "overseer" of the synagogue to teach the children to read (Shab. i. 3, according to Maimonides, Bertinoro, and Tosafot Yom-Ṭob on the passage), or to assist the schoolmaster in teaching the children in the synagogue.
A passage in the Jerusalem Talmud (Ber. ix. 12d, beginning), which Kohut considers to have been interpolated after Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix., seems to indicate that the ḥazzan also led the prayers in the synagogue. Especially in smaller congregations, and even in early Talmudic times, the duties of preacher, judge, schoolmaster, and ḥazzan were discharged by one person, as the famous story about Levi bar Sisi shows (Yer. Yeb. 13a; Gen. R. lxxxi.).
"The most serious trouble as yet to come up at school occurred in late winter when Jesus dared to challenge the chazan regarding the teaching that all images, pictures, and drawings were idolatrous in nature. Jesus delighted in drawing landscapes as well as in modeling a great variety of objects in potter’s clay. Everything of that sort was strictly forbidden by Jewish law, but up to this time he had managed to disarm his parents’ objection to such an extent that they had permitted him to continue in these activities.
(1366.5) 124:1.4 But trouble was again stirred up at school when one of the more backward pupils discovered Jesus drawing a charcoal picture of the teacher on the floor of the schoolroom. There it was, plain as day, and many of the elders had viewed it before the committee went to call on Joseph to demand that something be done to suppress the lawlessness of his eldest son. And though this was not the first time complaints had come to Joseph and Mary about the doings of their versatile and aggressive child, this was the most serious of all the accusations which had thus far been lodged against him. Jesus listened to the indictment of his artistic efforts for some time, being seated on a large stone just outside the back door. He resented their blaming his father for his alleged misdeeds; so in he marched, fearlessly confronting his accusers. The elders were thrown into confusion. Some were inclined to view the episode humorously, while one or two seemed to think the boy was sacrilegious if not blasphemous. Joseph was nonplused, Mary indignant, but Jesus insisted on being heard. He had his say, courageously defended his viewpoint, and with consummate self-control announced that he would abide by the decision of his father in this as in all other matters controversial. And the committee of elders departed in silence.
(1367.1) 124:1.5 Mary endeavored to influence Joseph to permit Jesus to model in clay at home, provided he promised not to carry on any of these questionable activities at school, but Joseph felt impelled to rule that the rabbinical interpretation of the second commandment should prevail. And so Jesus no more drew or modeled the likeness of anything from that day as long as he lived in his father’s house. But he was unconvinced of the wrong of what he had done, and to give up such a favorite pastime constituted one of the great trials of his young life."
The "Chazan" was the leader of services as well as responsible for other duties in the temple. The word "cantor" doesn’t appear in the UB, had the amateur theologians paid closer attention to the words of the UB as well as Lon's own link they would see that the common chazan predates the evolution of the Cantor of the Geonic period.
Jewish Encyclopedia
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4276-chazan
ḤAZZAN (Hebrew, V06p284001.jpg; Aramaic, V06p284002.jpg):
Communal official. The word is probably borrowed from the Assyrian "ḥazanu," "ḥazannu" (overseer, director; see Delitzsch, "Assyrisches Handwörterbuch," p. 272a; connected with the Hebrew V06p284003.jpg, meaning "vision"). "Ḥazanuti" (plural of "ḥazanu") in the El-Amarna tablets designates the governors who were stationed by Egypt in the subjugated cities of Palestine (Winckler and Zimmern, "Die Keilinschriften und das Alte Testament," pp. 194, 196, 198).
In the Talmud the term "ḥazzan" is used to denote the "overseer": (1) of a city; "ḥazzane demata," according to B. M. 93b (see Rashi ad loc.; Ket. 8b; 'Ar. 6b); (2) of a court of justice; at his order the sessions opened (Yer. Ber. iv. 7d); he also executed judgment on the condemned (Mak. iii. 12; comp. Yer. Sanh. v. 23a); (3) of the Temple; he had charge of the Temple utensils (comp. Arabic "khazin" = "treasure-keeper") and aided the priests in disrobing (Tamid v. 3; Yoma vii. 1); (4) of the synagogue ("ḥazzan bet ha-keneset"; see Soṭah vii. 7, 8; Suk. iv. 4); he brought out the rolls of the Torah, opened them at the appointed readings for the week, and put them away again (Soṭah vii. 7-8; Yer. Soṭah vii. 21d; Yer. Meg. iv. 15b, 75b); with trumpet-blasts he announced the beginnings of Sabbaths and holy days from the roof of the synagogue (Tosef., Suk. iv.); he attended to the lamps of the synagogue (Yer. Ma'as. Sh. 56a); he accompanied the pilgrims that brought the firstlings to the sanctuary of Jerusalem (Tosef., Bik. ii. 101). His place was in the middle of the synagogue, on the wooden "bimah" (Yer. Suk. v. 55b), and, according to Tosef., Meg. iii., beginning (see Mordecai ad loc.), he might, at the desire of the congregation, read aloud from the Torah, his ordinary duties then devolving temporarily upon another. It seems also to have been the duty of the "overseer" of the synagogue to teach the children to read (Shab. i. 3, according to Maimonides, Bertinoro, and Tosafot Yom-Ṭob on the passage), or to assist the schoolmaster in teaching the children in the synagogue.
A passage in the Jerusalem Talmud (Ber. ix. 12d, beginning), which Kohut considers to have been interpolated after Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix., seems to indicate that the ḥazzan also led the prayers in the synagogue. Especially in smaller congregations, and even in early Talmudic times, the duties of preacher, judge, schoolmaster, and ḥazzan were discharged by one person, as the famous story about Levi bar Sisi shows (Yer. Yeb. 13a; Gen. R. lxxxi.).
"The most serious trouble as yet to come up at school occurred in late winter when Jesus dared to challenge the chazan regarding the teaching that all images, pictures, and drawings were idolatrous in nature. Jesus delighted in drawing landscapes as well as in modeling a great variety of objects in potter’s clay. Everything of that sort was strictly forbidden by Jewish law, but up to this time he had managed to disarm his parents’ objection to such an extent that they had permitted him to continue in these activities.
(1366.5) 124:1.4 But trouble was again stirred up at school when one of the more backward pupils discovered Jesus drawing a charcoal picture of the teacher on the floor of the schoolroom. There it was, plain as day, and many of the elders had viewed it before the committee went to call on Joseph to demand that something be done to suppress the lawlessness of his eldest son. And though this was not the first time complaints had come to Joseph and Mary about the doings of their versatile and aggressive child, this was the most serious of all the accusations which had thus far been lodged against him. Jesus listened to the indictment of his artistic efforts for some time, being seated on a large stone just outside the back door. He resented their blaming his father for his alleged misdeeds; so in he marched, fearlessly confronting his accusers. The elders were thrown into confusion. Some were inclined to view the episode humorously, while one or two seemed to think the boy was sacrilegious if not blasphemous. Joseph was nonplused, Mary indignant, but Jesus insisted on being heard. He had his say, courageously defended his viewpoint, and with consummate self-control announced that he would abide by the decision of his father in this as in all other matters controversial. And the committee of elders departed in silence.
(1367.1) 124:1.5 Mary endeavored to influence Joseph to permit Jesus to model in clay at home, provided he promised not to carry on any of these questionable activities at school, but Joseph felt impelled to rule that the rabbinical interpretation of the second commandment should prevail. And so Jesus no more drew or modeled the likeness of anything from that day as long as he lived in his father’s house. But he was unconvinced of the wrong of what he had done, and to give up such a favorite pastime constituted one of the great trials of his young life."
Lon
Well-known member
LOL! If the papers are so great, I shouldn't have to worry about it.
This is just one I randomly read in the middle. Shoot if even you think this about parts of your own papers...
:idunno:
At twelve years old Jesus stirs up things at the temple, it's such an amazing episode, a God-youth asking questions!
http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-125-jesus-jerusalem
http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-125-jesus-jerusalem
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Open to explore................
Open to explore................
People 'cherry pick' the Bible 24-7, each 'denomination' or 'person' using it to support their own differing 'theories', 'doctrines', etc. I said that 'tongue in cheek', since I was considering the more fundamental teachings as shared in the first 12 papers as 'foundational', and you seemed to be jumping in to find 'faults', at random. - with over 2,000 pages, it covers a vast amount of material concerning human knowledge, planetary history, cosmology, religious principles, concepts, ideals, etc. Its the content of various chapters and how they relate within their own contextual-frame that is interesting, and only in that context can anything have 'value' or 'meaning'.
- Paper 115 on 'The Supreme Being'
Btw, they are not 'my' papers (they are for all to consider),....and I've shared that I find some parts and teachings in it more interesting and thought-provoking than others,...just like I could say about the bible or other religious writings. Unfortunately few are discussing the content and how it relates to traditional theology, the rest being thread-pests, condescending, ridiculing, marginalizing the subject, spouting the usual polemics, pontificating. Debate and dialogue can done respectfully.
pj
Open to explore................
People 'cherry pick' the Bible 24-7, each 'denomination' or 'person' using it to support their own differing 'theories', 'doctrines', etc. I said that 'tongue in cheek', since I was considering the more fundamental teachings as shared in the first 12 papers as 'foundational', and you seemed to be jumping in to find 'faults', at random. - with over 2,000 pages, it covers a vast amount of material concerning human knowledge, planetary history, cosmology, religious principles, concepts, ideals, etc. Its the content of various chapters and how they relate within their own contextual-frame that is interesting, and only in that context can anything have 'value' or 'meaning'.
- Paper 115 on 'The Supreme Being'
Btw, they are not 'my' papers (they are for all to consider),....and I've shared that I find some parts and teachings in it more interesting and thought-provoking than others,...just like I could say about the bible or other religious writings. Unfortunately few are discussing the content and how it relates to traditional theology, the rest being thread-pests, condescending, ridiculing, marginalizing the subject, spouting the usual polemics, pontificating. Debate and dialogue can done respectfully.
pj
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Lon
Well-known member
Er, I read that too:
It must seem a lot more credible to you than it does to me, and for me, further context only hurts it worse.urantia said:
Okay, I am incredulous, but how else did you think these were going to be taken when even you are tell us to skip age 9?
Well, ▲ look at it ▲ It doesn't relate to Biblical theology at all!
I have a feeling if anyone else read it, the flaming would be worse!
Freelight is certainly a "wordsmith" However, his devotion to
a fictional writing (urantia papers) is a mystery to me! He
seems to defend them to the utmost! His desire is to coax
fellow posters to read/study these works of man's imagination,
in order to be in a position to debate the relevance or irrelevance
of the material put forth!
The problem is, the "true believer" in the written word of God (Bible)
has NO interest in fictionalized additions to God's word! There's
really no debate here! The Bible IS the inspired written word of God,
and the urantia book IS not! That's the pure, and the simple of it!
a fictional writing (urantia papers) is a mystery to me! He
seems to defend them to the utmost! His desire is to coax
fellow posters to read/study these works of man's imagination,
in order to be in a position to debate the relevance or irrelevance
of the material put forth!
The problem is, the "true believer" in the written word of God (Bible)
has NO interest in fictionalized additions to God's word! There's
really no debate here! The Bible IS the inspired written word of God,
and the urantia book IS not! That's the pure, and the simple of it!
Errrrm, no, the bible books don't claim to be the word of God. Most Christians were born into a ready made religion and shamed if they dare challenge the conflicting theology of the ruling class. They are drilled constantly on the false teaching that God wrote the bible when the bible itself dosnt even say so. It's like they are trying to insure themselves of something that they doubt deep within.
And those who rejected Jesus based on blind scripture worship thought they were doing a service to God. Religious prided blinds men to living truth.
Aimiel
Well-known member
It isn't pride, it's a personal, dynamic and growing relationship with The Living God; Whom you haven't met. You should though! All you need to do is to repent and be baptized in The Name of Jesus.
I'm not rejecting Jesus, I'm explaining to you what it's like for those who have Him living inside of them. We have His Witness together with our own that shows us what to do or not do. He leads us, not our own selfishness.
I'm not rejecting Jesus, I'm explaining to you what it's like for those who have Him living inside of them. We have His Witness together with our own that shows us what to do or not do. He leads us, not our own selfishness.
Only an arrogant religious man would presume to judge others relationship with God, what a laughing stock!
Aimiel
Well-known member
If I didn't judge righteous judgment, I'd be disobeying The Lord.
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
If I weren't sure, I wouldn't say anything. You shouldn't be so silly about something that has eternal consequences. No one is promised that they'll wake up tomorrow. The Lord wants you to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
If I weren't sure, I wouldn't say anything. You shouldn't be so silly about something that has eternal consequences. No one is promised that they'll wake up tomorrow. The Lord wants you to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I'm already saved, it's just that your ego is so huge that your control sickness has gotten the best of you. You have encountered someone who knows your game and has no fear of calling out a snake oil salesman. It's highly likely that you use religion like a drug to avoid some other part of your life that is out of control of some unpleasant emotions from the past.
God’s Law and the Father’s Will
(1588.4) 141:2.1 "The night before they left Pella, Jesus gave the apostles some further instruction with regard to the new kingdom. Said the Master: “You have been taught to look for the coming of the kingdom of God, and now I come announcing that this long-looked-for kingdom is near at hand, even that it is already here and in our midst. In every kingdom there must be a king seated upon his throne and decreeing the laws of the realm. And so have you developed a concept of the kingdom of heaven as a glorified rule of the Jewish people over all the peoples of the earth with Messiah sitting on David’s throne and from this place of miraculous power promulgating the laws of all the world. But, my children, you see not with the eye of faith, and you hear not with the understanding of the spirit. I declare that the kingdom of heaven is the realization and acknowledgment of God’s rule within the hearts of men. True, there is a King in this kingdom, and that King is my Father and your Father. We are indeed his loyal subjects, but far transcending that fact is the transforming truth that we are his sons. In my life this truth is to become manifest to all. Our Father also sits upon a throne, but not one made with hands. The throne of the Infinite is the eternal dwelling place of the Father in the heaven of heavens; he fills all things and proclaims his laws to universes upon universes. And the Father also rules within the hearts of his children on earth by the spirit which he has sent to live within the souls of mortal men.
(1588.5) 141:2.2 “When you are the subjects of this kingdom, you indeed are made to hear the law of the Universe Ruler; but when, because of the gospel of the kingdom which I have come to declare, you faith-discover yourselves as sons, you henceforth look not upon yourselves as law-subject creatures of an all-powerful king but as privileged sons of a loving and divine Father. Verily, verily, I say to you, when the Father’s will is your law, you are hardly in the kingdom. But when the Father’s will becomes truly your will, then are you in very truth in the kingdom because the kingdom has thereby become an established experience in you. When God’s will is your law, you are noble slave subjects; but when you believe in this new gospel of divine sonship, my Father’s will becomes your will, and you are elevated to the high position of the free children of God, liberated sons of the kingdom.”
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The divine will......
The divine will......
Interesting to see an emphasis upon one's will....being God's will, they being essentially one or united as one. This inspiring will motivates the soul to fulfill that very will, in thought, word and deed. Another emphasis of the papers is Jesus instruction to "be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect" (the context in the synoptics is in loving others, even your enemies...so that you prove to be children of God)....being that 'love' and 'loving' is the character and expression of God.
pj
The divine will......
Interesting to see an emphasis upon one's will....being God's will, they being essentially one or united as one. This inspiring will motivates the soul to fulfill that very will, in thought, word and deed. Another emphasis of the papers is Jesus instruction to "be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect" (the context in the synoptics is in loving others, even your enemies...so that you prove to be children of God)....being that 'love' and 'loving' is the character and expression of God.
pj
Aimiel
Well-known member
If you're saved, then why are you trampling The Blood of Christ under your feet by following a false religion which teaches that His Blood, The Only Salvation is worthless? :duh:
Salvation isn't a game. It has eternal consequences. Your soul is important to God. He doesn't want you to spend eternity in torment.
You won't get anywhere claiming ignorance in the end!
The claim that God authored the books of the Bible became a substitute for having a personal, spiritual relationship with the Living Word. So sincere believers remain stunted, they are unable to grow in a historical worldview or a scientific understanding of life on earth. The effect is a people who live in an unreal bubble, they are increasingly ineffective in relating to an educated society.
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