The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
JustAChristian
New member
Re: Baptism into the body is not with water!
Re: Baptism into the body is not with water!
Craig,
Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6:3-5. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to cleanse away sin (Acts 22:16). If not, why not?
In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.
The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was overwhelmed with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5).
Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men, and when performed scripturally is approved of God. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own free will. At a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.
The one baptism of Eph. 4 is Christian era baptism. It is the baptism that is commanded. And it was designed to remain in effect until the end of the earth (Matthew 28:18-20). It is not the baptism of John. It is not the baptism of fire. And it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Christian era baptism consists of immersion in water (Acts 8:38). Its prerequisites are faith, repentance, and confession (Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37). It, therefore, is not for infants. It is administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19,20). And, it is for the remission of sins and for union with Christ (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Galatians 3 :26-27; Romans 6:3-5).
Summarizing, let me say that baptism produces forgiveness of sins. Why?, because it is at this point of obedience that one comes in contact with the death of Christ. It is only in the death of Christ that we may find salvation. And it is only in baptism that we may contact the death of Christ (Rom. 6:1-6). Paul affirms that we are baptized into his death, that is the death of Christ, and that is very important. Some contend that baptism only symbolizes a dying to sin on our part, in turning from our sins; that the only death connected with baptism is the spiritual dying to sin that occurs within us. But this simply is not true. It is true that a dying to sin occurs within us in conversion. But it is not true that this dying to sin is all that baptism represents. Paul's teaching is that we are baptized into the death of Jesus. So remember, now, we are baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13); Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23); we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27); into his death (Rom. 6:3) where his blood was shed; and in baptism we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). In view of such plain passages, how can anyone honestly feel that water baptism is unimportant and has no validity? How can they say that we can be cleansed and saved any other way?
If Holy Spirit baptism was intended for the cleansing of sins, it would have be so depicted in the scriptures that it would have been impossible to misunderstand. Many of the leading church leaders of the Reformation era understand that water baptism for the remission of sins is commanded, but have chosen to ignore it in favor of position and favor with man.
The Role of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit:
Is called the Comforter KJV
Is called the Counselor NIV--John 14:16,26
Will be with us forever--John 14:16
Is the Spirit of Truth
Lives in us--John 14:17
Teaches us all things
Reminds us of Christ’s teachings--John 14:26
Will testify about Jesus--John 15:26
Convicts the world of guilt--John 16:8
Guides us into all truth--John 16:13
Takes from what is Christ’s and makes known to us-- John 16:14-15
Intercedes for us
Helps us in our weakness—Romans 8:26-27
Searches all things
Reveals truth –1Corinthians 2:10
How and when do we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? At baptism when our sins are forgiven and washed away:
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Galatians3:26-27,4:6
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ…Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who cries out, “Abba”, Father.”
As a result of baptism into Christ we become sons. If we are sons, must not we be born? How are we born then? How can we be born when we are old? Nicodemus asked that same question--
John 3: 3-5
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
And if we are born, we are sons. And when were are born in this manner (through baptism), we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
JustAChristian
Re: Baptism into the body is not with water!
Craig,
Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6:3-5. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to cleanse away sin (Acts 22:16). If not, why not?
In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.
The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was overwhelmed with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5).
Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men, and when performed scripturally is approved of God. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own free will. At a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.
The one baptism of Eph. 4 is Christian era baptism. It is the baptism that is commanded. And it was designed to remain in effect until the end of the earth (Matthew 28:18-20). It is not the baptism of John. It is not the baptism of fire. And it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Christian era baptism consists of immersion in water (Acts 8:38). Its prerequisites are faith, repentance, and confession (Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37). It, therefore, is not for infants. It is administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19,20). And, it is for the remission of sins and for union with Christ (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Galatians 3 :26-27; Romans 6:3-5).
Summarizing, let me say that baptism produces forgiveness of sins. Why?, because it is at this point of obedience that one comes in contact with the death of Christ. It is only in the death of Christ that we may find salvation. And it is only in baptism that we may contact the death of Christ (Rom. 6:1-6). Paul affirms that we are baptized into his death, that is the death of Christ, and that is very important. Some contend that baptism only symbolizes a dying to sin on our part, in turning from our sins; that the only death connected with baptism is the spiritual dying to sin that occurs within us. But this simply is not true. It is true that a dying to sin occurs within us in conversion. But it is not true that this dying to sin is all that baptism represents. Paul's teaching is that we are baptized into the death of Jesus. So remember, now, we are baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13); Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23); we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27); into his death (Rom. 6:3) where his blood was shed; and in baptism we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). In view of such plain passages, how can anyone honestly feel that water baptism is unimportant and has no validity? How can they say that we can be cleansed and saved any other way?
If Holy Spirit baptism was intended for the cleansing of sins, it would have be so depicted in the scriptures that it would have been impossible to misunderstand. Many of the leading church leaders of the Reformation era understand that water baptism for the remission of sins is commanded, but have chosen to ignore it in favor of position and favor with man.
The Role of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit:
Is called the Comforter KJV
Is called the Counselor NIV--John 14:16,26
Will be with us forever--John 14:16
Is the Spirit of Truth
Lives in us--John 14:17
Teaches us all things
Reminds us of Christ’s teachings--John 14:26
Will testify about Jesus--John 15:26
Convicts the world of guilt--John 16:8
Guides us into all truth--John 16:13
Takes from what is Christ’s and makes known to us-- John 16:14-15
Intercedes for us
Helps us in our weakness—Romans 8:26-27
Searches all things
Reveals truth –1Corinthians 2:10
How and when do we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? At baptism when our sins are forgiven and washed away:
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Galatians3:26-27,4:6
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ…Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who cries out, “Abba”, Father.”
As a result of baptism into Christ we become sons. If we are sons, must not we be born? How are we born then? How can we be born when we are old? Nicodemus asked that same question--
John 3: 3-5
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
And if we are born, we are sons. And when were are born in this manner (through baptism), we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
JustAChristian
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c.moore
New member
Quote by JustAchristian
Find one verse that tells us that the Holy Spirit will give us life (cause us to be a new creature).
Quote c.moore
you made a statement that looks like if when someone shows you this verse in the bible, you will believe this person is telling the truth, and it would be time you will confess that you are wrong.
But you got your answer which DAN 37 gave you 2 Corinthians 3:6 ¶Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
This proves the Spirit giveth life, and you deney the bible, and you refuse to admit you are wrong, either because of pride, or your brain washed into lieing, or you are not really A christian ,and you just like to argue, nto willing to grow.
That post that Dan37 wrote is proof , something is wrong with you, and that not falsly judgement, you put your fruit in the light, and the truth of you was revealed, , and it looks ugly to every, and stinks, even a blind person know something is wrong.
One thing we don`t have to do is council demons, and devils works, because they will not turn to God, they are always against God no matter what proof a person comes up with, and this is what you revealed in your post when you said:
Is Paul speaking of the Holy Spirit? No, he is speaking of the covenant. We see how the Old Covenant only convicted one of sin, but never gave the means of eternal life.
IWhen I read this I couldn`t believe my eyes.
you are saying like 1+1=3, and I except no other answer even when someone told you 1+1=2, you responce is NO.
No wounder Dan37 said :You may be a lost cause. You have no understanding whatsoever. You are all tiedup with your denoanational teaching. You can't accept truth. I will now leave you and this forum. I am not in the habbit of arguing with fence post.
I agree 101% with Dan37 , and I think Agape,and HopeofGlory would agree you are wasting our time, staying blind.
Pleace let God bless you with understanding and wisdom .
Jas:1:5: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Our fight is not agaist you JustAchristian, but fight togther as one body against the devil, and his weapons like false doctrines, religious spirits, which the sad don`t you sees had, and let learn from each other because the harvest is waiting for us to bring the truth to them, and the devil wants to use false doctrine to divide the body of Christ, please Join us in fighting the Devil kingdom together, and let`s go in the enemies camp and bind the strong man in unity like the disciple did.
Ac:2:42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Ac:2:46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Let God bless you he is waiting for you JustAchristian.
God Loves you , and we do also.
ps.Eph:6:12: For we wrestle not against JUSTACHRISTIAN, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Find one verse that tells us that the Holy Spirit will give us life (cause us to be a new creature).
Quote c.moore
you made a statement that looks like if when someone shows you this verse in the bible, you will believe this person is telling the truth, and it would be time you will confess that you are wrong.
But you got your answer which DAN 37 gave you 2 Corinthians 3:6 ¶Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
This proves the Spirit giveth life, and you deney the bible, and you refuse to admit you are wrong, either because of pride, or your brain washed into lieing, or you are not really A christian ,and you just like to argue, nto willing to grow.
That post that Dan37 wrote is proof , something is wrong with you, and that not falsly judgement, you put your fruit in the light, and the truth of you was revealed, , and it looks ugly to every, and stinks, even a blind person know something is wrong.
One thing we don`t have to do is council demons, and devils works, because they will not turn to God, they are always against God no matter what proof a person comes up with, and this is what you revealed in your post when you said:
Is Paul speaking of the Holy Spirit? No, he is speaking of the covenant. We see how the Old Covenant only convicted one of sin, but never gave the means of eternal life.
IWhen I read this I couldn`t believe my eyes.
you are saying like 1+1=3, and I except no other answer even when someone told you 1+1=2, you responce is NO.
No wounder Dan37 said :You may be a lost cause. You have no understanding whatsoever. You are all tiedup with your denoanational teaching. You can't accept truth. I will now leave you and this forum. I am not in the habbit of arguing with fence post.
I agree 101% with Dan37 , and I think Agape,and HopeofGlory would agree you are wasting our time, staying blind.
Pleace let God bless you with understanding and wisdom .
Jas:1:5: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Our fight is not agaist you JustAchristian, but fight togther as one body against the devil, and his weapons like false doctrines, religious spirits, which the sad don`t you sees had, and let learn from each other because the harvest is waiting for us to bring the truth to them, and the devil wants to use false doctrine to divide the body of Christ, please Join us in fighting the Devil kingdom together, and let`s go in the enemies camp and bind the strong man in unity like the disciple did.
Ac:2:42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Ac:2:46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Let God bless you he is waiting for you JustAchristian.
God Loves you , and we do also.
ps.Eph:6:12: For we wrestle not against JUSTACHRISTIAN, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Kevin
New member
Excellent work, JustAChristian!!
Excellent work, JustAChristian!!
JustAChristian,
You are obviously doing a good job to frustrate them to the point of saying "well... you're not a Christian! You have no understanding". Good work! It just amplifies the illustration of their lack of understanding! Obviously, they don't have the truth on their side, therefore they are only left with foolish, misguided judgements.
To the anti-baptists:
Folks, the use of water is undeniably connected to baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 10:47-48). When the apostles went out into the world to preach the gospel, they baptized people with WATER in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 19:5).
This is the given method of being baptized in the New Testament church of Christ. This is how the apostles did it, therefore, this is how WE are to do it as well. Deal with it. You can tell me I am possessed by demons, the devil is my father, and blah blah blah, but that's what the word of God says. We will see who is right and wrong at judgement day according to Jesus's judgement, not yours.
Excellent work, JustAChristian!!
JustAChristian,
You are obviously doing a good job to frustrate them to the point of saying "well... you're not a Christian! You have no understanding". Good work! It just amplifies the illustration of their lack of understanding! Obviously, they don't have the truth on their side, therefore they are only left with foolish, misguided judgements.
To the anti-baptists:
Folks, the use of water is undeniably connected to baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 10:47-48). When the apostles went out into the world to preach the gospel, they baptized people with WATER in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 19:5).
This is the given method of being baptized in the New Testament church of Christ. This is how the apostles did it, therefore, this is how WE are to do it as well. Deal with it. You can tell me I am possessed by demons, the devil is my father, and blah blah blah, but that's what the word of God says. We will see who is right and wrong at judgement day according to Jesus's judgement, not yours.
c.moore
New member
This is the given method of being baptized in the New Testament church of Christ. This is how the apostles did it, therefore, this is how WE are to do it as well. Deal with it. You can tell me I am possessed by demons, the devil is my father, and blah blah blah, but that's what the word of God says. We will see who is right and wrong at judgement day according to Jesus's judgement, not you
Quote c.moore
But, at judgement day it really doen`t matter who`s wrong because we can`t change our mistakes, it`will be to late.
But one way we can see if you are right, is if you are left behind when the rapture take place, you will have time to repent , and die getting your head cut off or something.
I know you said you have a small church, maybe you should check out why people are not joining you doctrine, I think it`s to much works, and ritual for the lost
peace
Quote c.moore
But, at judgement day it really doen`t matter who`s wrong because we can`t change our mistakes, it`will be to late.
But one way we can see if you are right, is if you are left behind when the rapture take place, you will have time to repent , and die getting your head cut off or something.
I know you said you have a small church, maybe you should check out why people are not joining you doctrine, I think it`s to much works, and ritual for the lost
peace
JustAChristian
New member
Sorry, This Is Not A True Verse.
Sorry, This Is Not A True Verse.
Sorry, This Is Not A True Verse.
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Kevin
New member
Listen here, Mr. Assumption...
Listen here, Mr. Assumption...
c.moore,
And just where did you get that idea? Pure assumption. My congregation is not exploding with growth, no, but it is growing. We are noticeably larger than when we first started. Just a few weeks ago, we baptized somebody into Christ Jesus (yes, with WATER).
You seem to have this strange idea that more people in a chruch must mean that that chruch is righteous in God's eyes because it has a lot of people. Well, the following verse speaks for itself:
Matthew 7:13-14
13) Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who will go in by it.
14) Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
I know your proud of your church with 5000+ members (or something like that). Your church numbers mean jack didley to me. Yes, many people will be led away from the truth by the doctrine of man preaching an easy believism water-downed version of the gospel and it will lead them through the broad gate of destruction.
Jesus says where there are TWO, yes, TWO who gather in His name that He will be there with them (Matt. 18:20). Two! Population mean ZERO in regards to it's righteousness.
Listen here, Mr. Assumption...
c.moore,
And just where did you get that idea? Pure assumption. My congregation is not exploding with growth, no, but it is growing. We are noticeably larger than when we first started. Just a few weeks ago, we baptized somebody into Christ Jesus (yes, with WATER).
You seem to have this strange idea that more people in a chruch must mean that that chruch is righteous in God's eyes because it has a lot of people. Well, the following verse speaks for itself:
Matthew 7:13-14
13) Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who will go in by it.
14) Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
I know your proud of your church with 5000+ members (or something like that). Your church numbers mean jack didley to me. Yes, many people will be led away from the truth by the doctrine of man preaching an easy believism water-downed version of the gospel and it will lead them through the broad gate of destruction.
Jesus says where there are TWO, yes, TWO who gather in His name that He will be there with them (Matt. 18:20). Two! Population mean ZERO in regards to it's righteousness.
Last edited:
C.Moore--
You said to Kevin-
Have you not considered that perhaps some churches don't draw an enormous amount of people because the majority of the people don't want to worship with a congregation that teaches the full-fat milk with the meat, and not just some watered-down skim milk version of God's Word? 2Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." Most people want to hear that all they have to do to get to heaven is believe in Jesus, and not anything more. Make salvation look like a piece-of-cake with no effort on the sinners part and of course you're going to have people flocking to hear you preach!
It would be down right amazing if that kind of "church" wasn't popular. It's kind of like a get-rich-quick scheme--invest almost nothing and get a huge return. And we know how many suckers there are out there! And, unfortunately, a lot of the people preaching this rubbish are out there to make a buck. It becomes painfully obvious when you take a look at the tv evangelists dripping with diamonds in their fancy suits, which I'm sure you think is just a sign of how God is blessing them for their work. In reality, these people just give Christians a bad name. I've heard unbelievers scoff at these "Christians", using them as an example to explain why there's no way they would want to be a Christian.
Our church might not be huge, but that's probably because it doesn't cater to the itching ears of its members, or potential members, but teaches the truth--the whole truth, and not your watered down version!
Carri
You said to Kevin-
You should probably get your facts straight and not assume things before opening your mouth and making a judgement like that. In fact, the congregation we worship with has doubled in size since we began meeting together 21 months ago. We've moved from meeting in one house, to a larger house, to a banquet room in a hotel in order to accomodate our size.
Have you not considered that perhaps some churches don't draw an enormous amount of people because the majority of the people don't want to worship with a congregation that teaches the full-fat milk with the meat, and not just some watered-down skim milk version of God's Word? 2Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." Most people want to hear that all they have to do to get to heaven is believe in Jesus, and not anything more. Make salvation look like a piece-of-cake with no effort on the sinners part and of course you're going to have people flocking to hear you preach!
It would be down right amazing if that kind of "church" wasn't popular. It's kind of like a get-rich-quick scheme--invest almost nothing and get a huge return. And we know how many suckers there are out there! And, unfortunately, a lot of the people preaching this rubbish are out there to make a buck. It becomes painfully obvious when you take a look at the tv evangelists dripping with diamonds in their fancy suits, which I'm sure you think is just a sign of how God is blessing them for their work. In reality, these people just give Christians a bad name. I've heard unbelievers scoff at these "Christians", using them as an example to explain why there's no way they would want to be a Christian.
Our church might not be huge, but that's probably because it doesn't cater to the itching ears of its members, or potential members, but teaches the truth--the whole truth, and not your watered down version!
Carri
Just A Christian--
To this post to c.moore
Carri
To this post to c.moore
I would like to say: don't count on it! However, I don't really think that is the kind of thing Christ would approve of us saying to someone--though I've been sorely tempted to say worse to him. I really admire your persistance, but maybe its time to shake the dust from your feet.... I have to remind myself that turning nasty may very well disqualify myself from the race and its just not worth it.
Carri
elected4ever
New member
carrie ,your wrong about people. People are actually very religious. The reason most people do not come to a Church that teaches the truth is that thay cannot add to or profect what thay must receive by faith. People wont to feel like they have done something other than believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. They had reather believe "I am good enough because I did" than "Jesus did it all and I must accept that plus nothing of my own". Yes I can understand why your church has grown. Religious people flock to a place like that. It is my hope that Jesus is stell preached. The Holy Spirir is the only person I know who can make a silk purse out a sou's ear.
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elected4ever
New member
carrie ,your wrong about people. People are actually very religious. The reason most people do not come to a Church that teaches the truth is that thay cannot add to or profect what thay must receive by faith. People wont to feel like they have done something other than believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Thay had reather believe "I am good enough because I did" than Jesus did it all and I must accept that plus nothing of my own. Yes I can understand why your church has grown. It is my hope that Jesus is stell preached. The Holy Spirir is the only person I know who can make a silk purse out a sou's ear.
dan37--
I haven't spent much time on this thread lately so I haven't read your posts to know just what you believe, but I take it from your response that you're another one who believes that faith-only saves, be that live faith or dead faith (faith without works as per James 2).
Personally, I actually believe what's written in Heb5:9 "..and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him..." Common sense tells you that you are not going to obey something you don't believe in, so in order to obey, faith is a given. I have yet to find a version of the Bible that uses the word "believe" in that verse in place of the word "obey". Christ is not the source of eternal salvaton for those who are disobedient. While it is true that nothing we can do can earn us salvation, it is also true that our lack of works will certainly condemn us!
He also said in John 14:15 "if you love me you will obey what I command." Does this statement make any sense: "Lord, I don't love you, but since I believe in you, I know that I will have a place in heaven with you someday."? If this makes sense, then you have to believe that even the demons will be saved, because they sure believe!
Anyone who waters down God's Word by teaching that obediance is not necessary for salvation is not teaching the whole truth and is deceiving the lost, ensuring that they will remain in that state. You can ignore the parts of the Bible that don't "tickle the ears" but that doesn't make them any less true.
Carri
I haven't spent much time on this thread lately so I haven't read your posts to know just what you believe, but I take it from your response that you're another one who believes that faith-only saves, be that live faith or dead faith (faith without works as per James 2).
Personally, I actually believe what's written in Heb5:9 "..and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him..." Common sense tells you that you are not going to obey something you don't believe in, so in order to obey, faith is a given. I have yet to find a version of the Bible that uses the word "believe" in that verse in place of the word "obey". Christ is not the source of eternal salvaton for those who are disobedient. While it is true that nothing we can do can earn us salvation, it is also true that our lack of works will certainly condemn us!
He also said in John 14:15 "if you love me you will obey what I command." Does this statement make any sense: "Lord, I don't love you, but since I believe in you, I know that I will have a place in heaven with you someday."? If this makes sense, then you have to believe that even the demons will be saved, because they sure believe!
Anyone who waters down God's Word by teaching that obediance is not necessary for salvation is not teaching the whole truth and is deceiving the lost, ensuring that they will remain in that state. You can ignore the parts of the Bible that don't "tickle the ears" but that doesn't make them any less true.
Carri
c.moore
New member
Re: Sorry, This Is Not A True Verse.
Re: Sorry, This Is Not A True Verse.
Quote by c.moore
I am proud of your interpretation of the letter, I`ll give you an A on that
I could get sarcastic back at you on your interpretation of the Holy Spirit, but I will remain in my fruit of meekness, and humbleness.
You need to take the advice from carri, your showing your fruits to much,of the spirit that is guiding you, you should keep it offline so we don`t see the truth about you.:down:
I hope you can get this easy lesson to help you grow.
Sorry if this also come`s to sarcastic.
You said:? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit, but the Law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus -- the New Testament. Don't you agree?
Nope, because this scripture is mean directly the Holy Spirit.
Let`look what the bibles says, JustAchristian.
First let look at the CEV bible.
Quote 2Cor 3:6
He makesus worthy to be the servants of his agreement that comes from the HOLY SPIRIT and not from a written Law.After all, the Law brings death, but theSpirit brings life.
You said:? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,
Let look at the Living bible.
2 Corinthians 3:6 :: New Living Translation (NLT)
2 Corinthians 3
6He is the one who has enabled us to represent his new covenant. This is a covenant, not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old way ends in death; in the new way, the Holy Spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:6 :: Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 Corinthians 3
6[It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive.(1)
Now JustAchristian , you can fight against the interpretation bibles, not me , or Dan37.
Just to prove that you take things out of context I will explain the king James version in my first grade level as you call it ,to get knowledge from the truth, so you can be free , and grow.
Let`s put this whole chapter under a magnify glass.
2Co:3:3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink,but with the Spirit of the living God;
2Co:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord 2Co:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord
2Co:3:18: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as
by the Spirit of the Lord.
I hope you know how to say you are in err, and admit, you missed the mark because you are a human being with err.
We will be waiting on how you try to get out of what you said, quote :The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,
Let God bless you
peace
Re: Sorry, This Is Not A True Verse.
Quote by c.moore
I am proud of your interpretation of the letter, I`ll give you an A on that
I could get
sarcastic back at you on your interpretation of the Holy Spirit, but I will remain in my fruit of meekness, and humbleness.You need to take the advice from carri, your showing your fruits to much,of the spirit that is guiding you, you should keep it offline so we don`t see the truth about you.:down:
I hope you can get this easy lesson to help you grow.
Sorry if this also come`s to sarcastic.
You said:? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit, but the Law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus -- the New Testament. Don't you agree?
Nope, because this scripture is mean directly the Holy Spirit.
Let`look what the bibles says, JustAchristian.
First let look at the CEV bible.
Quote 2Cor 3:6
He makesus worthy to be the servants of his agreement that comes from the HOLY SPIRIT and not from a written Law.After all, the Law brings death, but theSpirit brings life.
You said:? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,
Let look at the Living bible.
2 Corinthians 3:6 :: New Living Translation (NLT)
2 Corinthians 3
6He is the one who has enabled us to represent his new covenant. This is a covenant, not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old way ends in death; in the new way, the Holy Spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:6 :: Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 Corinthians 3
6[It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive.(1)
Now JustAchristian , you can fight against the interpretation bibles, not me , or Dan37.
Just to prove that you take things out of context I will explain the king James version in my first grade level as you call it ,to get knowledge from the truth, so you can be free , and grow.
Let`s put this whole chapter under a magnify glass.
2Co:3:3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink,but with the Spirit of the living God;
2Co:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord 2Co:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord
2Co:3:18: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as
by the Spirit of the Lord.
I hope you know how to say you are in err, and admit, you missed the mark because you are a human being with err.
We will be waiting on how you try to get out of what you said, quote :The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,
Let God bless you
peace
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c.moore
New member
Re: Listen here, Mr. Assumption...
Re: Listen here, Mr. Assumption...
Quote by c.moore
I got the fact that you fellowship was tiny because you admit it to me when I ask about your fellowship you attend, and you said it was a new little group , because you said, you left you other church because the one of the elders was living in sin.
Does this remind you why I know about your group???????
So this is no assumption.
You know that A somebody is one person, is this your growth sence you began you new group???
You said :You seem to have this strange idea that more people in a chruch must mean that that chruch is righteous in God's eyes because it has a lot of people.
Quote c.moore
we just go by bible princible, which we do and take from Ac:2:46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Plus the new born saved people that get saved, every week, fall in love with Jesus, and they accept the good news they are saved before any water baptism, That`s good new.
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Jo:4:15: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo:4:17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo:4:18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo:4:19: We love him, because he first loved us.
That is Good news Kevin.
If your group will preach this to the lost you will see you group grow from 8 to 80, and 80 to 500, and etc, the church will gain favor from God in these last days, because the harvest is plenty.
Your missing the point that we are righteous when Jesus is living in us, because we are his Holy temple, when we get saved.
Your doctrine of first do works, and ritual, and after judgement day you might be saved, will chase anyone away, just as well join the Muslims, or the Mormons, because they work under the all the commandment they can keep.
I rather go with the confidence alone in Jesus, and fall day , by day, in the love, and personally know Jesus, which I am married too.
My love alone is what make me want to obey, but not I don`t obey to gain His love, or to gain salvation .
the offer God gives us, or the good new is like taken , or chosen a rose royles, with a life time garantee, or a ford with no garantte.
This is like the good new for salvation.
peace
Re: Listen here, Mr. Assumption...
Quote by c.moore
I got the fact that you fellowship was tiny because you admit it to me when I ask about your fellowship you attend, and you said it was a new little group , because you said, you left you other church because the one of the elders was living in sin.
Does this remind you why I know about your group???????
So this is no assumption.
You know that A somebody is one person, is this your growth sence you began you new group???
You said :You seem to have this strange idea that more people in a chruch must mean that that chruch is righteous in God's eyes because it has a lot of people.
Quote c.moore
we just go by bible princible, which we do and take from Ac:2:46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Plus the new born saved people that get saved, every week, fall in love with Jesus, and they accept the good news they are saved before any water baptism, That`s good new.
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Jo:4:15: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo:4:17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo:4:18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo:4:19: We love him, because he first loved us.
That is Good news Kevin.
If your group will preach this to the lost you will see you group grow from 8 to 80, and 80 to 500, and etc, the church will gain favor from God in these last days, because the harvest is plenty.
Your missing the point that we are righteous when Jesus is living in us, because we are his Holy temple, when we get saved.
Your doctrine of first do works, and ritual, and after judgement day you might be saved, will chase anyone away, just as well join the Muslims, or the Mormons, because they work under the all the commandment they can keep.
I rather go with the confidence alone in Jesus, and fall day , by day, in the love, and personally know Jesus, which I am married too.
My love alone is what make me want to obey, but not I don`t obey to gain His love, or to gain salvation .
the offer God gives us, or the good new is like taken , or chosen a rose royles, with a life time garantee, or a ford with no garantte.
This is like the good new for salvation.
peace
c.moore
New member
Originally posted by carri
Just A Christian--
To this post to c.mooreI would like to say: don't count on it! However, I don't really think that is the kind of thing Christ would approve of us saying to someone--though I've been sorely tempted to say worse to him. I really admire your persistance, but maybe its time to shake the dust from your feet.... I have to remind myself that turning nasty may very well disqualify myself from the race and its just not worth it.
Thanks Carri, that was good teaching.:up:
JustAChristian
New member
Thanks for the feedback!
Thanks for the feedback!
Carri,
Irony takes on many colors! Maybe I was being a little brash, however. I repent.
JustAChristian
Thanks for the feedback!
Originally posted by carri
Just A Christian--
To this post to c.mooreI would like to say: don't count on it! However, I don't really think that is the kind of thing Christ would approve of us saying to someone--though I've been sorely tempted to say worse to him. I really admire your persistance, but maybe its time to shake the dust from your feet.... I have to remind myself that turning nasty may very well disqualify myself from the race and its just not worth it.
Carri,
Irony takes on many colors! Maybe I was being a little brash, however. I repent.
JustAChristian
C.Moore--
How is this not getting sarcastic back?
It's surprising you would give me a thumbs up for my post, when it is clear by what I wrote that I wholeheartedly agree with what Just a Christian said--I just think it is rude to actually say it. You know "If you can't say something nice, keep your mouth shut"? It's also amazing you could find "good teachings" coming from a religious, ritualistic, not abiding in the truth person such as myself. Just where do you suppose my fruits are coming from?
Carri
How is this not getting sarcastic back?
It's surprising you would give me a thumbs up for my post, when it is clear by what I wrote that I wholeheartedly agree with what Just a Christian said--I just think it is rude to actually say it. You know "If you can't say something nice, keep your mouth shut"? It's also amazing you could find "good teachings" coming from a religious, ritualistic, not abiding in the truth person such as myself. Just where do you suppose my fruits are coming from?
Carri
elected4ever
New member
If one believes that Jesus sined then one could believe warter baptism can save. Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins but to fulfill all righteousness which is quite different. We are said to follow the Lord in Baptism and if that is the case then it would be necessary for our sin problem to be taken care of before water baptism. We follow the Lord in water baptism to fulfill all righteousness. As the Apostle John said in 1John 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." If we are like Christ then our water baptism is to "fulfill all righteousness" not "for the remission of sins".
JustAChristian
New member
Being Baptized Like Jesus.
Being Baptized Like Jesus.
dan37,
John said:
“And I knew him not, but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.” John 1:31.
He baptized Jesus to fulfill all righteousness and to make Christ known to Israel. Now, if you are going to be baptized in the likeness and reason expressed for Jesus, you must be baptized to be made manifest to Israel. Is that why you should be baptized? Did Peter tell those on Pentecost to repent and be baptized to fulfill all righteousness and be made manifest to Israel, or did he say be baptized for the remission of sins. I believe you know the answer. Neither did Peter tell Cornelius, nor Philip tell the Ethiopian Eunuch to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness and be manifested to Israel. You see, if we follow the pattern and keep away from speculation and wresting the scriptures, we don’t run into these situations. You are right, Jesus had no sins to be washed away, but he was a Jew, and it was the Jew's calling to be baptized by John. If he was not obedient to this calling, he would not have been well pleasing to the Father. His attitude and disposition would be within the sinful mode. Our sins are taken care of in scriptural baptism. This is because it is at this point we contact the blood of Christ that washes away sins, Acts 22:16. Look more to the spiritual side of immersion and less to the physical and perhaps you will come to a better understanding.
JustAChristian
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
Being Baptized Like Jesus.
dan37,
John said:
“And I knew him not, but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.” John 1:31.
He baptized Jesus to fulfill all righteousness and to make Christ known to Israel. Now, if you are going to be baptized in the likeness and reason expressed for Jesus, you must be baptized to be made manifest to Israel. Is that why you should be baptized? Did Peter tell those on Pentecost to repent and be baptized to fulfill all righteousness and be made manifest to Israel, or did he say be baptized for the remission of sins. I believe you know the answer. Neither did Peter tell Cornelius, nor Philip tell the Ethiopian Eunuch to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness and be manifested to Israel. You see, if we follow the pattern and keep away from speculation and wresting the scriptures, we don’t run into these situations. You are right, Jesus had no sins to be washed away, but he was a Jew, and it was the Jew's calling to be baptized by John. If he was not obedient to this calling, he would not have been well pleasing to the Father. His attitude and disposition would be within the sinful mode. Our sins are taken care of in scriptural baptism. This is because it is at this point we contact the blood of Christ that washes away sins, Acts 22:16. Look more to the spiritual side of immersion and less to the physical and perhaps you will come to a better understanding.
JustAChristian
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
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c.moore
New member
Originally posted by carri
C.Moore--
How is this not getting sarcastic back?
It's surprising you would give me a thumbs up for my post, when it is clear by what I wrote that I wholeheartedly agree with what Just a Christian said--I just think it is rude to actually say it. You know "If you can't say something nice, keep your mouth shut"? It's also amazing you could find "good teachings" coming from a religious, ritualistic, not abiding in the truth person such as myself. Just where do you suppose my fruits are coming from?
Carri
I didn`t mean to do the same I was just putting myself in the first grade level, and making JustAchristian look better than I am, so I don`t walk in proudness.
But I see that it looks like I am doing the same back.
So I repent.
I also accept your apology JustAchristian, but please answer my post , if the bibles are wrong or right.
thanks