The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Since JustAChristian has already given a more than sufficient answer to your arguments regarding Greek grammar, and you have not replied to his answer, or otherwise refuted my assertion that Peter meant repentance AND baptism were necessary, I'll refrain from commenting further right now.

I do want to make a comment about something you said in your last reply to me:

'If submitting to the rite of water baptism was ESSENTIAL for salvation,why did not Peter add the words "and be baptize" to his words to "repent"?'

Well, Jerry, have you ever asked yourself why he mentioned baptism at all? Or why Jesus said those who 'believe and are baptized will be saved'? Or why Jesus said '...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'? Or why Peter put importance on water baptism even after he saw Cornelius had received the Spirit? Or why Philip baptized the eunuch into Jesus Christ using water?

You can come with an argument for every instance, explaining why the text doesn't mean what it appears to say, some credible, some not so credible. But to believe your claim, one must believe that every one of these verses actually means something other than the 'plain' meaning of the text. That just doesn't make sense.

And it brings me back to my first question above: why did Peter, Jesus or Paul mention baptism in the context of salvation at all?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[JustAChristian]

Responding to Craig's Post...

Responding to Craig's Post...

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Just,

My replies are in bold.

The mere fact that baptism in water for the remission of sins is commanded makes the act essential. It is just as important as coming to the knowledge of the Gospel, repentance, confessing Christ as Lord and sowing to the Spirit.

I like that analogy, let's try another. The mere fact that speaking in tongues in the early chruch was evidence of a "true" water baptized believer means all water baptized "true" believers should speak in tongues today because Jesus commanded it.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mark 16:17

Just , do you speak in tongues?

All these are commandments of the Lord preached by the apostles. To deny one is to deny all as being essential.

Another analogy! How nice of you to further provide an example of the reasoning behind your theology.

Let's see, Jesus commanded that ... sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. Luke 18:22

Peter backed it up concerning Ananais.. why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Acts 5:3

Peter then condemns Sapphria to death for the same... How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Acts 5:9

Have you sold "all that thou hast" and given it to the poor? If not why are you still alive and on this forum spewing your false doctrine?


One is to do good works after they are added to the church, and failure to do so, as one lives the Christian life, will result in the loss of salvation eternally.

How sad it must be for you to have no assurance of your salvation. I can sing these words and believe them.... Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!

My assurance is Christ Jesus the Hopeofglory not my works.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:13
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:14

Where is the water in these verses of promise?

I have been "sealed" and Christ signed the contract with His blood and delivered it to the Father. My salvation does not depend on my "works" as those under the "law", it depends on the promise of God and the finished work of Christ. Why do you attemped to rob God of His glory?


Not by "works of righteousness" which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5


Whoever says that baptism is only for the saved are contrary to the scriptures. There is no way to sustain such a doctrine from Holy Writ.

Whoever says "Spirit" baptism is only for the saved would be right. Who ever says "water" baptism is for anybody today has no understanding of right division.

In Christ
Craig

It is refreshing to see no "slander" associated with my user name. I wish everyone would respect the fact that I am just a Christian and no further description need be added.

Your analogy is quite unbiblical. Being “cute” is not necessary or proper. Though speaking in tongues came after someone was baptized, not all spoke in tongues [the Samaritans, Simon, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia, the Jailor et al, are not shown to have spoken in another tongue by the Spirit]. Care to try another analogy?

I speak English quite well, and hablo cierto espanish lo, pero no puedo entenderlo. ¿Como sobre usted?

Always glad to help a man who is seeking understanding.

Jesus was speaking to another man in another dispensation. To me and you he says by the apostle Paul, “Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; (1 Timothy 6:17-18 AV. And, “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1:27 AV). I am not commanded to sell all my goods and give to the poor.

Ananias was not commanded to give all he got for the land to the apostles, but if he said that he would then he was thus committed to do so. He and his wife lied about how much the land cost and what they had given. They died in sin because of the lie. God’s vengeance was swift at that time and gave them no part to repent.

As I said before, I am not commanded to do so. Your analogy is faulty just like all your doctrine.

O, but I do have assurance! I am promised by the Lord, who cannot lie, that I will be saved. I need only attend to my duty as a Christian and I will reap everlasting life with the Father; “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10 AV)

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead being alone (James 2:20).

Where is the water? Just “wring out your Bible” and water will just flow out! But that is not what you want to hear, is it? Ever since Noah floated with the ark, water has played an important part in man’s salvation. The children of Israel crossed the water of the Red sea and was saved. Moses struck the rock in the desert and water flowed, the children crossed the Jordan and gained the promised land, John preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins and the people were prepared to meet the Messiah. Today, those who believe the gospel and are baptized for the remission of sins, as is prescribed in the gospel, will be saved. They have then the potential for eternal life if they remain faithful servants of the Lord.

I read my Bible and it tells me that the gift of the Holy Spirit comes when one is immersed in a watery grave for the remission of sins. I have not found the same in your doctrine. I don’t believe you are saved, and I really don’t think you believe it yourself or you would have sound argument to sustain your salvation.

That is a wonderful verse. It tell us that we can not earn our salvation by doing righteous works. God gives us salvation as a free gift. His mercy is extended to whosoever will come and drink of the river of life freely. Though we are not saved by our righteous works, we must begin our walk with the Lord in baptism. I have found that giving you scriptural references is useless since you have your own doctrine which they contradict , you have chosen to not listen to the verses I give you to study.

Show me one scriptural reference, outside of the apostles, of anyone who is lost being saved from sins and then baptized with the Holy Spirit.

The lesson I learn from the baptism of the eunuch greatly teaches me an all who will listen to it that water has a very important part in salvation: “And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?” (Acts 8:36 AV). Just “wring out your Bible”, Craig! The water will just flow out abundantly!

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Sheepdog


The only people who prosper from the "gospel" that you, and the liars you promote, are those of you who steal from the poor by telling them that if they don't give to you, then God will curse them.

I didn`t , an never say they will be curse but I did point out what the bible said:Mal:3:8: Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal:3:9: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal:3:10: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mal:3:11: And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal:3:12: And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

Plus the preachers, and Evangelist don`t have to steal from the poor because they were rich and debt free before the poor can give so they got rich from those who are rich and have more to give, and the window of heaven open for us that don`t steal from God .
Are you also one of these thief that don`t pay tithes, and rob God??? :nono:

I teach the poor how to be poor no more, and not not by giving , it´s by investing what you can, but God see`s our heart even when we have a little to give.
Sorry you can`t be A blessing to God Kingdom when we don`t support His Kingdom.
Be A cheerful giver , you will reap plenty to give more to the poor.

 

[Freak]

Just Works-

This is comes down to the person of Jesus who is God.

Jesus is all we need for salvation. Stop trusting some water.

Water will only get you wet but Jesus will actually save you.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith not water.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Francisco
Jerry,

Since JustAChristian has already given a more than sufficient answer to your arguments regarding Greek grammar, and you have not replied to his answer, or otherwise refuted my assertion that Peter meant repentance AND baptism were necessary, I'll refrain from commenting further right now.

I do want to make a comment about something you said in your last reply to me:

'If submitting to the rite of water baptism was ESSENTIAL for salvation,why did not Peter add the words "and be baptize" to his words to "repent"?'

Well, Jerry, have you ever asked yourself why he mentioned baptism at all? Or why Jesus said those who 'believe and are baptized will be saved'? Or why Jesus said '...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'? Or why Peter put importance on water baptism even after he saw Cornelius had received the Spirit? Or why Philip baptized the eunuch into Jesus Christ using water?

You can come with an argument for every instance, explaining why the text doesn't mean what it appears to say, some credible, some not so credible. But to believe your claim, one must believe that every one of these verses actually means something other than the 'plain' meaning of the text. That just doesn't make sense.

And it brings me back to my first question above: why did Peter, Jesus or Paul mention baptism in the context of salvation at all?

God Bless,

Francisco

Francisco,

The "plain meaning" of Mark 16:16 does not teach that water baptism is a "requirement" for obtaining salvation,any more than any of the other verses you quoted.If you are looking for the "plain meaning" concerning what it takes to have one´s sins removed,go to Acts3:19.Here is the real "true meaning" of the Lord´s words at Mark 16:16:

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;but he that believeth not shall be damned”(Mk.16:16).

This verse is not giving the CONDITIONS for salvation.Instead,the Lord Jesus is describing those who will be saved.The Lord knows that those who truly believe will follow His command to be baptized.But He is not saying that submitting to a rite of water baptism is condition for salvtion.Please consider the words of the Lord Jesus in the following verse where he also describes those who will be saved,i.e.,”shall inherit everlasting life”:

“And every one who hath forsaken houses,or brethren,or sisters,or father,or mother or wife,or children,or lands,for My Name´s sake,shall receive an hundredfold,and shall inherit everlasting life”(Mt.19:29).

Are we to believe that a “condition” of salvation is to forsake a close relative?No,the Lord is merely describing some of those who will do these things but in no way is He making these things a “condition” to obtain salvation.

Again,there are no verses that say specifically that submitting to the rite of water baptism brings about the remission of sins or the gift of the Holy Spirit.In fact,we see that there were those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water,and Peter specifically says that "repentence" and being converted is what brings about the remission of sins.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[elected4ever]

Well said Jerry

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Sheepdog


Jesus paid the tithe. (You have heard of Him, right?)

And as far as I know, every Pastor in this city is not part of the Levitical Priesthood.

Jesus is our tithe!
Jesus is our Sabbath!
Jesus is our circumcision!

A giving of the portion, sanctifies the whole!

Do you know what a tithe is????

Did Jesus do all our praying for us so we don`t have to pray any more???

Jesus is our redeemer, and shead His blood for us does this mean we don`t have to repent because Jesus is our repent?????????

If so please give bible scriptures, or make up your own!

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

We've already been through all your reasons why the various verses regarding baptism don't really mean what they seem to say. So, can you just answer my previous question, why then was baptism mentioned in context with salvation by Jesus, Paul and Peter so many times?

Also, you say above the Lord knows those who truly believe will be baptized. Why, if your position that baptism is nothing more than a symbol, would those who truly believe get baptized? Cornelius surely didn't need a symbol after the Holy Spirit filled him. Everyone could see the spirit had come to Cornelius. Why did he still need to be baptized with water?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Apollos]

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ...

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ...

Jerry finally agress with me...

Instead,the Lord Jesus is describing those who will be saved.

Finally correct - those that believe AND are baptized will be saved because they are the ones that have their sins "washed" away.

Water baptism is the means chosen by God through which man appropriates the salvation that God offers man by His grace.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Sheepdog


Yes, I do. Do you!



We repent once from being an unbeliever to a believer, from being in the dark to being in the light, from being dead to being made alive, from your dead works to righteousness.

I don`t understand , you said we repent.

I thought under your interpretation that Jesus does, like you said Jesus did the tithes?????

When Jesus does the tithes , the n he must do everything else.

 

[c.moore]

I would like to know how many people changed thier teaching on this water saves baptism????

How many changed and found the truth that water doesn`t change us Jesus , and the Holy spirit changes us, and our renewed mind in the grace of God, but how many changed to this bible doctrine???
just give me the count please so I cdan see this is a waste of religious precious time.


peace

 

[JustAChristian]

Funny, isn't it?

Funny, isn't it?

Originally posted by Freak
Just Works-

This is comes down to the person of Jesus who is God.

Jesus is all we need for salvation. Stop trusting some water.

Water will only get you wet but Jesus will actually save you.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith not water.

Freak,

It is simply amazing how you say all one needs is Jesus and you are not willing to do what Jesus says. The Lord spoke of such saying: "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 AV). It was Jesus that commended immersion for the remission of sins (John 14:26; Acts 2:38). How ccan you claim to have Jesus when you show that you are an enemy of the cross by your statements?

JustAChristian
:angel:

 

[Francisco]

Apollos,

Jerry finally agress with me...

Instead,the Lord Jesus is describing those who will be saved.

Finally correct - those that believe AND are baptized will be saved because they are the ones that have their sins "washed" away.

Water baptism is the means chosen by God through which man appropriates the salvation that God offers man by His grace.

I don't think you will find Jerry agreeable to your thought here, even though that is what he said in his last reply to me. That's why I asked him the questions that I asked. I'm anxious to see his reply.

BTW, your comment was excellent, right on target.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Apollos,

I do not agree with you.You say that submitting to the rite of water baptism is a requirement for salvation.I never said that.

I said that the Lod Jesus was merely describing those who would be saved.But that does not mean thaty that is a requirement for salvation.

By using your method of interpretation,I could argue that in order to be saved one must first leave a relative,but we both know that that is not a requirement for salvation,don´t we?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

You say that 'submitting to the rite of water baptism' in and of itself doesn't save, and we agree with you.

Then you say 'The Lord knows that those who truly believe will follow His command to be baptized', and I agree with you, providing these believers have the opportunity to be baptized.

But then you say baptism is not necessary, that it has no part in our salvation whatsoever. But if that is so, and one is not baptized, does that mean:

1. They never truly believed?
2. Although they were true believers, they were misled to believe baptism was an unnecessary symbolic ritual?
3. Your statement is incorrect and Jesus does not know which true believers will follow His command to be baptized?

Also, in case you missed it the other times I've posted it, I asked you a question before that you have still not replied to: Why did Jesus, Paul and Peter mention baptism in the same context as salvation so often?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Francisco
Jerry,

We've already been through all your reasons why the various verses regarding baptism don't really mean what they seem to say. So, can you just answer my previous question, why then was baptism mentioned in context with salvation by Jesus, Paul and Peter so many times?

Also, you say above the Lord knows those who truly believe will be baptized. Why, if your position that baptism is nothing more than a symbol, would those who truly believe get baptized? Cornelius surely didn't need a symbol after the Holy Spirit filled him. Everyone could see the spirit had come to Cornelius. Why did he still need to be baptized with water?

God Bless,

Francisco

Francisco,

The idea that a "water baptism" could actually wash away sins comes from the pagn belief that sins could actually attach themselves to a person´s physical body.Therefore,"baptismal regeneration" had its beginnings in the pagan religions.

However,in this enlightened age we can understand that "washing" as it is used in Scripture is but a "figure" or "type".And this "figure" in Scripture represents "practical cleansing".

For example,the Isrealite who became "defiled" was required to be sprinkled with the "water of separation"(a purification for sin) and then they were to bathe themselves with water (Num.19:9,19).

Thus when one submitted to the rite of water baptism,he was testifying that he had turned from his sins or from his sinful lifestyle.And this explains the words at Acts22:16:

"Arise and be baptized,and wash away thy sins,calling on the Name of the Lord."

It is a fact that one cannot wash away sins from his body by water because sins do not attach to one´s body.Instead,the meaning is clear--"Arise and be baptized,and turn away from your evil courses,calling on HIs Name."

The one who submitted to this rite were proclaiming that they were in fact sinners,and that they were turning from their past way of living in sin.

Next,you ask,"If baptism is nothing more than a symbol,why would those who truly believe get baptized?"

Well,first of all,it was commanded by the Lord that all those who had repented and had their sins remitted should be baptized.The same can be seen in regard to the rite of "circumcision".It was nothing but a "symbol",but the Lord still wanted all those who believed to be circumcised.

The Lord had a reason in using all these "symbols" or "types",and that reason is not difficult to determin.They were given so that we can understand more clearly the "realities" that these "types" prefigured.

But to continue to think that the "types" represent the reality,as you do when you teach that it is by "water" that the sinner is regenerated, is to betray your ignorance of the difference between the "types" and the reality.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Your reply above is real scholarly and all, how you explain how all these verses are really talking about just a symbol. We've been all through this. You have a different reason for every verse. You say, Peter didn't mean baptism saves, even though that's what he said. And you say Jesus didn't mean those who believed AND were baptized would be saved, even though that's what He said. And none of the other verses mean what they say. The eunuch wasn't baptized into Christ in water. And you have a very scholarly answer, with all these references to Greek grammar, etc... (with the exception of your answer about the eunuch).

But all I want to know is why, in your opinion, did Jesus, Paul, Peter and others, so frequently mention baptism in the same context as salvation? I've asked several times now, can you please answer?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Apollos]

Water baptism appropriates salvation because God set it up that way...

Water baptism appropriates salvation because God set it up that way...

Hey Jerry -

I was just showing in my last post to you that you talk out of both sides of your mouth.

You get in such a huff to prove yourself right that you often times don't even know what you are saying.

That post just illustrates this.

 

[Apollos]

Jerry - observes the "passover" 365 days a year on YOUR questions...

Jerry - observes the "passover" 365 days a year on YOUR questions...

Francisco -

Jerry only answers what he chooses to answer. He will "talk around" a post if he doesn't ignore it. But his favorite tactic is to go over to another passage, almost any passage, related or not to the topic, and tell you that this new passage of his explains the other passage, while never dealing with the passage directly that YOU presented. Once Jerry has done this, YOUR passage does not exist.

On page 183 of this thread I asked several questions of Jerry. He never answered. He probably thinks he did though.

I do not know Jerry well enough to discern if he is intellectually dishonest, or if he just doesn't understand, but given some of his "maneuvers", I say it is probably the former.

Thanks for the kind words - and best of luck getting an answer. You are going to need it !!!!

 

[c.moore]

Can anybody answer this Question?
I would like to know how many people changed thier teaching to this water saves baptism????

How many changed and found the truth that water doesn`t change us , and only the Holy spirit changes us, and our renewed mind in the grace of God, but how many changed to this bible doctrine and found that Jesus is the way , the truth , and the life, not that water baptism is the way the truth, and the life???
just give me the count please so I can see if this is a waste of religious precious time to try to convince somebody about A teaching of the bible.


peace