The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[HopeofGlory]

Just,

You have a Calvinistic doctrine to uphold that says baptism has nothing to do with salvation , so you will never admit that you are wrong because you love your doctrine even though it is contrary to the New Testament on salvation.

Baptism is by the Spirit not in water. You have no idea what the new testament is. Water baptism (Mark 1:4) was for remission of sins and it was old testament as taught by the Baptist before the cross and it is the same as Peter preached (Acts 2 :38), both were a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins in the name of Jesus. The new testament for remission of sins (Matt 26:28) superceded water baptism for remission. "All" who have faith in the new testament are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13).

Again, the baptism that Peter preached is the same as the Baptist preached under the law and you will never prove otherwise. Water baptism was a righteous work and we are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5).

You continue to hold your legalist idea of salvation and attempt to void the grace of God (Roms 11:6). This is evident in your denial of eternal security in the new testament purchased by the shed blood of Christ (John 6:54).

In Christ
Craig

 

[elected4ever]

Baptism is just what I said it was. An act of an obedeant heart. God has never ask us to do any thing that we are not capable off. Salvation is by grace through faith. Salvation is the new birth. Salvation does have it's expression through obedeance in the physical life. We would do well to obey the first commandment that Jesus gave to the church.
Baptism is the expression of the faith that is believed. What act of obedeance can anyone show me that expresses the death, buriel and resurection of the Lord Jesus Christ. What act can anyone show me that demenstrates in there own life what has happened to the individual Christian. Baptism does not save in and of itself but how can you show me an obedeant heart without it?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

The facts are plain and simple for all to see.You said:

"I have nowhere [NOOOO WHERE] ever said that water baptism saves."

Do you deny writing that?

Then,when I provide the words where there can be no doubt that you are saying that water baptism saves,you attack me personally.

You demand an apology and say that I cannot understand English grammar.

But Mr.JustAChristian,here are your words again:

"Baptism by immersion is for the remission of sins.It is essential for the new birth.It is necessary to be in the family of God.It saves" (11-21-2002 08:24AM).

You are here speaking of "baptism by immersion",which means "water baptism".And you ay that it is ESSENTIAL for "the new birth".You say that IT SAVES.

And later you write,"I have nowhere ever said that water baptism saves."

You ACCUSE me of misquoting you,but all I have ever done is to quote your words EXACTLY as you wrote them.It is you who is making false accusations against me.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

Even you admit that one is baptized into Christ BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

But you also say that "the Holy Spirit doesn´t perform baptism...I say that we receive the Hoy Spirit in water baptism..."

Well,if we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism,we would say that someone is baptized WITH the Holy Spirit,and not BY the Holy Spirit.

When you say that someone is baptized into Christ BY the Holy Spirit,you are saying that it is the Holy Spirit Who is doing the baptism.

And you also say that the sinner receives the gift of the Holy Spirit when they submit to the rite of water baptism.Howevr,the following proves that you are in error.

First of all,we see that those who received the Holy Spirit received it before they were baptized with water (Acts2:3,4).

We also see that Cornelius and his household received it before they were baptized with water.

The gift of the Holy Spirit comes as a result of repenting (having a change of mind),and not a result of being bptized with water.Peter said:

"Repent (and be baptized every on of you in the name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

Here,the verb makes a distinction between singular and plural verbs and nouns.The verb "repent" is plural and so is the pronoun "your" in the clause "for the remission of your sins"(eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon),Therefore,the verb "repent" must go with the purpose of "forgivness of sins".

On the other hand,the words "be baptized" is singular,setting it off from the rest of the sentence.Therefore,the sentence should read:

Repent for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And that matches the words of Peter later on that same day.He said:

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

That is why we see those who had already repented receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized on the day of Pentecost:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,they were all with one accord in one place.And suddenly there came a sound from heaven like a rushing mighty wind,and it filled all the house where they were sitting.And there appeared unto them cloven tongues as of fire,and it sat upon all of them.And they were all filled ith the Holy Spirit..."(Acts2:1-4).

And we can also see that Cornlius and his household also received the Holy Spirit in the same manner that Peter did,and this was as a result of "repentance" and not because of a "water baptism".Peter said:

"Can anyone forbid water,that these should not be baptized,WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT AS WELL AS WE?"(Acts10:47).

So an examination of the events in the Acts narrative proves that it was by "repentance" that the sinner had his sins removed and received the gift of the Holy Spirit:

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

In HIs grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
Francisco,

Even you admit that one is baptized into Christ BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

But you also say that "the Holy Spirit doesn´t perform baptism...I say that we receive the Hoy Spirit in water baptism..."

Well,if we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism,we would say that someone is baptized WITH the Holy Spirit,and not BY the Holy Spirit.

When you say that someone is baptized into Christ BY the Holy Spirit,you are saying that it is the Holy Spirit Who is doing the baptism.

Actually, the same Greek word, 'en', that is translated here as 'by', is a primary preoposition denoting place and instrumentality and is defined as 'in, by, with etc.' according to Strong's. So in this sentence, 'en' is indicating that the Holy Spirit is an instrument with which we are baptized. For your claim to be true, the word you would be looking for is (I believe) 'ek' which would denote the Holy Spirit as the originator of the baptism.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
And you also say that the sinner receives the gift of the Holy Spirit when they submit to the rite of water baptism.Howevr,the following proves that you are in error.

First of all,we see that those who received the Holy Spirit received it before they were baptized with water (Acts2:3,4).

We also see that Cornelius and his household received it before they were baptized with water.

This does not prove any error, as I said before that baptism isn't the only way in which one receives the Holy Spirit. I hope that I receive the Spirit's assistance when I ask Him to open my mind and heart to the Word before I read scripture. Surely you do to?

So, if we can receive the Holy Spirit by means other than baptism, Cornelius receiving the Spirit before he was baptized served another purpose and doesn't have anything to do with baptism. The purpose in Cornelius' case was to make Peter understand that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. Remember, the visions of the unclean animals was shown to Peter 3 times just prior to Cornelius sending his messengers to summon Peter. And after Peter saw the Spirit descend on Cornelius and realized God intended salvation for the Gentiles as well as Jews, Peter immediately called for Cornelius to be baptized so he too could be grafted into the Body of Christ.

And by the way, your statement that 'those who received the Holy Spirit received it before thay were baptized' is accurate ONLY in the case of Cornelius. In all other cases in scripture, the Holy Spirit is only received AFTER baptism.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
The gift of the Holy Spirit comes as a result of repenting (having a change of mind),and not a result of being bptized with water.Peter said:

"Repent (and be baptized every on of you in the name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

Here,the verb makes a distinction between singular and plural verbs and nouns.The verb "repent" is plural and so is the pronoun "your" in the clause "for the remission of your sins"(eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon),Therefore,the verb "repent" must go with the purpose of "forgivness of sins".

On the other hand,the words "be baptized" is singular,setting it off from the rest of the sentence.Therefore,the sentence should read:

Repent for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know what translation you're using, but the KJV reads 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' I believe your translation is adding the plural pronoun 'your' to the text, as this word is not found in the KJV or any of the literal translations. So your argument is invalid based on the fact 'your' is added for clarity to the original text. See how dangerous adding and subtracting words can be, no matter how good the intention?

So if we look at the KJV translation, the key becomes the meaning of the word 'and' which is translated from the Greek word 'kai' and indicates a cumulative coupling between the verbs 'repent' and 'be baptized'. That renders this sentence to mean that we must do both, repent and be baptized, for the remission of sins.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
And that matches the words of Peter later on that same day.He said:

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

And this agrees with my theology because the main 'ingredient' in baptism is repentance.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
That is why we see those who had already repented receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized on the day of Pentecost:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,they were all with one accord in one place.And suddenly there came a sound from heaven like a rushing mighty wind,and it filled all the house where they were sitting.And there appeared unto them cloven tongues as of fire,and it sat upon all of them.And they were all filled ith the Holy Spirit..."(Acts2:1-4).

You make the wild assumption that those who received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost were not already baptized. You have no basis for making this claim, as we've seen before.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
And we can also see that Cornlius and his household also received the Holy Spirit in the same manner that Peter did,and this was as a result of "repentance" and not because of a "water baptism".Peter said:

"Can anyone forbid water,that these should not be baptized,WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT AS WELL AS WE?"(Acts10:47).

This doesn't mean Peter received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. You're reading that into the text Jerry. It only means that Cornelius had received the Holy Spirit as well, too, or also. And notice the importance Peter put on water baptism even after the Holy Spirit had been received by Cornelius. It obviously wasn't 'symbolically' important as everyone had already seen the Spirit come to Cornelius. It was important because this is how a Christian is grafted into the Body of Christ.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
So an examination of the events in the Acts narrative proves that it was by "repentance" that the sinner had his sins removed and received the gift of the Holy Spirit:

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of your sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

As I said above, repentance IS the 'main ingredient' to baptism, so I agree that repentance is necessary. But I also believe that our obedience of faith, in this case following Jesus' wish that we are all baptized making a public confession of our faith, is also as important as our repentance. And just as for Abraham, who had faith in God before he made the outward showing of his faith by offering God his only son, our reward comes when we make our outward showing of our faith in baptism.

I hope you have a great Thanksgiving Jerry, and may God bless you always.

Francisco

 

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by dan37
Baptism is just what I said it was. An act of an obedeant heart. God has never ask us to do any thing that we are not capable off. Salvation is by grace through faith. Salvation is the new birth. Salvation does have it's expression through obedeance in the physical life. We would do well to obey the first commandment that Jesus gave to the church.
Baptism is the expression of the faith that is believed. What act of obedeance can anyone show me that expresses the death, buriel and resurection of the Lord Jesus Christ. What act can anyone show me that demenstrates in there own life what has happened to the individual Christian. Baptism does not save in and of itself but how can you show me an obedeant heart without it?

Dan, baptism is by the Spirit (I Cor 12:13) and Paul said that there is only ONE baptism (Ephs 4:5). Do you believe these words of Paul? If so how is it that you believe in two baptisms?

Today were are not required to perform a "righteous work" (Titus 3:5) concerning our salvation. The only work (act) required of God was the obedience of Christ to the cross (Roms 5:19).You may have been taught that "water" baptism expresses our faith but it is not found in the scriptures. If you feel that it is "symbolic" of what we believe then I require that you show it to me.

We as Christians are to be know by our fruits (Matt 7:20) and the fruits are... love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith (Gal. 5:22). I believe the most important fruit are those that receive salvation (James 5:7) by our witness of these fruits combined with the gospel of our salvation.

If you will provide scripture references that prove you points it will greatly be appreciated.

In Christ
Craig

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Just,



Baptism is by the Spirit not in water. You have no idea what the new testament is. Water baptism (Mark 1:4) was for remission of sins and it was old testament as taught by the Baptist before the cross and it is the same as Peter preached (Acts 2 :38), both were a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins in the name of Jesus. The new testament for remission of sins (Matt 26:28) superceded water baptism for remission. "All" who have faith in the new testament are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13).

Again, the baptism that Peter preached is the same as the Baptist preached under the law and you will never prove otherwise. Water baptism was a righteous work and we are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5).

You continue to hold your legalist idea of salvation and attempt to void the grace of God (Roms 11:6). This is evident in your denial of eternal security in the new testament purchased by the shed blood of Christ (John 6:54).

In Christ
Craig

Craig,
Your Schofield Dispensationalism is showing!

JustAChristian :thumb:

 

[elected4ever]

Hope of Glory

Aren’t you just a little concerned that your flesh still wants to disregard the right of the King to command?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Please give me chapter and verse where that verse was countermanded ? Isn’t it just your distaste of public water baptism that you have adopted this error in belief.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Water baptism is a good work as is many other things we do. I partake of the Lord’s Supper. That is also a good work. We receive the new birth (being born again) in order that these good works account for something where before they would only bring us damnation for our disbelief in what they represent. It is the witness of these good works that would condemn us if we were not born again when we partake of them. Those who say that water baptism saves fail to see this and you who say water baptism of the believer is not a necessary part of the Christian life fail to see the blessing and inter joy that comes from obedience.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Aren’t you just a little concerned that your flesh still wants to disregard the right of the King to command?

My concern is that the misunderstanding of the commission will cause a multitude to receive damnation as reflected with justachristian. Peter refusing to go to Cornelius reveals that he did not understand the commission.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The apostles were commanded to teach not to do the baptizing. Jesus had instructed them that He would do the baptizing.

For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5

The requirement to receive this baptism is faith in the Gospel of our salvation (shed blood of Christ for remission)(Roms 3:25). If we are washed by the word (Eph 5:26) then when we believe the words of the Son of God by the Spirit we are baptized by that word.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:13

We can also see that the moment we believe the word we receive the Spirit. I believe this truth is seen in the commission and understand it to be that Christ commanded the apostles to teach the new testament and all those that believed would be baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ.

The biggest error that I see is the fact that no where in the Pentecostal account will you find the new testament for remission mentioned by the apostles but they continued to preach a baptism of repentance as did the Baptist before the cross. Christ gave them the words of the new testament and the reply was..who can hear it (John 6:60).


Please give me chapter and verse where that verse was countermanded ? Isn’t it just your distaste of public water baptism that you have adopted this error in belief.

If you understand the commission to be you "apostles" go water baptize then your understanding of it is refuted by the "apostle" Paul. I believe Pauls words reflect the truth of the commission.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.. 1 Cor. 1:17


Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Water baptism is a good work as is many other things we do. I partake of the Lord’s Supper. That is also a good work. We receive the new birth (being born again) in order that these good works account for something where before they would only bring us damnation for our disbelief in what they represent. It is the witness of these good works that would condemn us if we were not born again when we partake of them. Those who say that water baptism saves fail to see this and you who say water baptism of the believer is not a necessary part of the Christian life fail to see the blessing and inter joy that comes from obedience.

I agree that good works can only come after salvation. Can you give me a verse that confirms your belief that water baptism is a good work? The false doctrine of baptismal regeneration is a product of water baptism. How is that men should judge the heart of a baptismal candidate if a false witness condemns them? Is it a blessing if only one is condemed if they misunderstand and believe that water baptism is a righteous work for remission (Acts 2:38)?

I addressed all of you points. Please respond in like manner and don't leave these two unanswered.

Dan, baptism is by the Spirit (I Cor 12:13) and Paul said that there is only ONE baptism (Ephs 4:5). Do you believe these words of Paul? If so how is it that you believe in two baptisms?

You may have been taught that "water" baptism expresses our faith but it is not found in the scriptures. If you feel that it is "symbolic" of what we believe then I require that you show it to me.

In Christ
Craig

 

[JustAChristian]

You both are wrong, anyways...

You both are wrong, anyways...

Originally posted by dan37
Hope of Glory

Aren’t you just a little concerned that your flesh still wants to disregard the right of the King to command?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Please give me chapter and verse where that verse was countermanded ? Isn’t it just your distaste of public water baptism that you have adopted this error in belief.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Water baptism is a good work as is many other things we do. I partake of the Lord’s Supper. That is also a good work. We receive the new birth (being born again) in order that these good works account for something where before they would only bring us damnation for our disbelief in what they represent. It is the witness of these good works that would condemn us if we were not born again when we partake of them. Those who say that water baptism saves fail to see this and you who say water baptism of the believer is not a necessary part of the Christian life fail to see the blessing and inter joy that comes from obedience.

The mere fact that baptism in water for the remission of sins is commanded makes the act essential. It is just as important as coming to the knowledge of the Gospel, repentance, confessing Christ as Lord and sowing to the Spirit. All these are commandments of the Lord preached by the apostles. To deny one is to deny all as being essential. One is to do good works after they are added to the church, and failure to do so, as one lives the Christian life, will result in the loss of salvation eternally. Whoever says that baptism is only for the saved are contrary to the scriptures. There is no way to sustain such a doctrine from Holy Writ. :nono:

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[elected4ever]

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Just a Christianest

Whoever says that baptism is only for the saved are contrary to the scriptures. There is no way to sustain such a doctrine from Holy Writ.
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you can't be serious. You can't find a place in scripture where the unsaved were ever baptized. You are so dense. You may be a christian as far as your religion is concerned but you are not born again. You have no concept of the term.

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Hope of Glory

How is that men should judge the heart of a baptismal candidate if a false witness condemns them?
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Good question! The only thing that baptism does is give testamony, that the canadate has believed in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and that Jesus is the Son of God and has come in in the flesh. I can only received the testamony of the individual to whom the baptism is admenistered. If he has given false testamony he condems himself. Any testemony given about the charicter of the individual prior to has conversion is not relavent. He has passed from the old to the new.
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Hope Of Glory

Is it a blessing if only one is condemed if they misunderstand and believe that water baptism is a righteous work for remission (Acts 2:38)?
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I have already proven that the word "for" is to be understood as "because of " in the case of Acts 2:38-39. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is received by all who have repented and turned to Jesus as the only sacrifice for sin. Baptism is the physical testamony of a spiritual fact. If the spiritual fact does not exist within the individual' he gives testamony aganist himself for not believing the truth that he has heard. My Bible tells me "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" not believe in baptism and you shall be saved.

 

[JustAChristian]

Answering My Part of the Post...

Answering My Part of the Post...

Originally posted by dan37
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Just a Christianest

Whoever says that baptism is only for the saved are contrary to the scriptures. There is no way to sustain such a doctrine from Holy Writ.

dan37 said:
"Those who say that water baptism saves fail to see this and you who say water baptism of the believer is not a necessary part of the Christian life fail to see the blessing and inter joy that comes from obedience. "

Here dan37, you have contradicted yourself. You say that "those who fail to say that water baptism saves fail to see this" is saying that you believe water baptism is essential to salvation. But, then you say "and you who say water baptism of the believer is not a necessary part of the Christian life fail to see the blessing and inter joy that comes from obedience " is saying that baptism is a part of Christian life and activity which I take to mean it is your feeling that baptism comes after salvation. Which way do you want us to believe?

JustAChristian
:angel:

 

[elected4ever]

. Those who say that water baptism saves fail to see this-- my quote

"those who (fail) to say that water baptism saves fail to see this
what Just a Christian said I said. If you can't get it right just shut up.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

First,Peter spoke to ALL the Jews who were listening.He said:

"Repent" (metanoeo),an "aorist active imperative","second person PLURAL"--"you all".

Then the words that follow-"and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ"--are no longer in the "second person plural" but change to "third person singular".Becuse of this there is a syntactical break and this introduces a separate idea.

Then we can see that the following words are again in the "second person plural",so these words belong to the word "repent" and not to "repent and be baptized":

"...for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The words "ye shall receive" is in the "second person".

Therefore,the correct meaning of the verse is:

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Now when we skip the parenthesis we can plainly see the meaning of his words:

Repent for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

And that matches perfectly with what Peter said later in the same day:

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

If submitting to the rite of water baptism was ESSENTIAL for salvation,why did not Peter add the words "and be baptize" to his words to "repent"?

And if being baptized with water is a "condition" for salvation,along with "repentance2,why do the following verses make no mention of "water baptism"?:

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name..."(Lk.24:47).

"Him hath God exalted...to give repentance to Israel,and forgiveness of sins"(Acts5:31).

And when the Philippian jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?",Paul DID NOT say,REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED,but instead said:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved"(Acts16:31).

And before Cornelius and his household had been baptized with water,they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.So ALL the evidence points to the fact that it was "repentance" that brought about the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And I too want to wish you and yours a very enjoyable Thanksgiving.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JustAChristian]

A Little Greek Hath Made Thee Mad!

A Little Greek Hath Made Thee Mad!

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
Francisco,

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

First,Peter spoke to ALL the Jews who were listening.He said:

"Repent" (metanoeo),an "aorist active imperative","second person PLURAL"--"you all".

Then the words that follow-"and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ"--are no longer in the "second person plural" but change to "third person singular".Becuse of this there is a syntactical break and this introduces a separate idea.

Then we can see that the following words are again in the "second person plural",so these words belong to the word "repent" and not to "repent and be baptized":

"...for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The words "ye shall receive" is in the "second person".

Therefore,the correct meaning of the verse is:

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Now when we skip the parenthesis we can plainly see the meaning of his words:

Repent for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

And that matches perfectly with what Peter said later in the same day:

"Repent,therefore,and be converted,that your sins may be blotted out..."(Acts3:19).

If submitting to the rite of water baptism was ESSENTIAL for salvation,why did not Peter add the words "and be baptize" to his words to "repent"?

And if being baptized with water is a "condition" for salvation,along with "repentance2,why do the following verses make no mention of "water baptism"?:

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name..."(Lk.24:47).

"Him hath God exalted...to give repentance to Israel,and forgiveness of sins"(Acts5:31).

And when the Philippian jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?",Paul DID NOT say,REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED,but instead said:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved"(Acts16:31).

And before Cornelius and his household had been baptized with water,they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.So ALL the evidence points to the fact that it was "repentance" that brought about the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And I too want to wish you and yours a very enjoyable Thanksgiving.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,

You are so, so wrong with your understanding. Let us look at this again:

"There is no more forceful way in the Greek language to tell someone to do something than a simple imperative-particularly the second person imperative. Especially when such a command is given regarding a specific situation, the one giving that command sees himself as an authority figure. He expects those addressed to do exactly as he has ordered." [William D. Mounce, "Basics of Biblical Greek,"Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, pg. 302].

"PERSON. In English all imperatives are second person; in Greek there are second and third person imperatives. Because there is no English equivalent to the thire person imperative, your translation must be a little idiomatic. "Blepe (second person singular) means (You) look!" "Blepetoe (third person singular) means "Let him look!" or "He must look!" The dey words "let" or "must," and a pronoun supplied from the person of the verb (him), can be added to make sense of the construction." [Ibid, pg. 303].

Also:

"{Repent ye} (metanohsate). First aorist (ingressive) active imperative. Change your mind and your life. Turn right about and do it now. You _crucified_ this Jesus. Now _crown_ him in your hearts as Lord and Christ. This first. {And be baptized every one of you} (kai baptisqhtw ekastoj umwn). Rather, "And let each one of you be baptized." Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed "in the name of Jesus Christ" (en tw onomati ihsou cristou). In accordance with the command of Jesus in#Mt 28:19 (eij to onoma)." -- A. T. Robertson Word Picture, Electronic CD-ROM issus, 1999.

What can be seen from all this. Peter is making a command to the multitude. The same people who are to repent are the same people who are to be baptized. The purpose of the baptism is for the remission of sins. They understood they were in sin and all asked what they must do. Peter tell them collectively to repent but the imparative switches to the second person singular for emphesis, telling each individually that each had to be baptized. It was not to be a collective baptism but individualized. Thus the change from second person plural to third person singular. Both terms are imperatives and are connected by the coordinating conjunction "kai". This Greek conjunction gives equal responsibility to each imperative. Therefore, there was not to be a distribution of the Holy Spirit to anyone who would not first be baptized for the remission of sins, and the same stands true today. Without the Holy Spirit as an indwelling (Romans 8:9), there can not be a remission of sins. So your hypothesis on the imperative is incorrect.

Further, in order to give proper understanding of the scriptures, you must interprete them in light of all that is said on the subject. Acts 2:38 teaches that baptism is for the remission of sins and every other verse having to do with baptism is for the remission of sin regardless of what totally is said on the subject of baptism in that particular verse. The term that is commonly used is " The Whole of Anything Is The Sum of Its Parts." The Whole (of the teaching of baptism for the remission of sins) is the sum of it parts (all the verses that teach on the subject of baptism).

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Pilgrimagain]

sorry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

Why do you not THINK before you make these incorrect statements?You say:

"Therefore,there was not to be a distribution of the Holy Spirit to anyone who would not first be baptized for the remission of sins..."

But Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water.

Also,the Lord Jesus told His Apostles to wait in Jerusalem for His promise that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4,5,8).

He did not say one thing about any requirement that they must first be baptized with water so that they could receive this gift.And there is nothing in the Acts narrative that indicates that they were baptized before they received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4).

Your statement is in error and the Holy Scriptures prove that you are in error.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[c.moore]

I can`t believe that this thread which Freak started is still going around the same mountains.
The religious water poeple fights against the spiritual led people .
What a battle .:doh: :nono:

The next fight or post will be IF Jesus is coming back on A camel or a motor cycle or is that a 747.:crackup:

Very important to think about that mountain while sinners are going to hell waiting for us to show them the way, and not just point the way.

Shalom

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Sheepdog


Even though the "guru" that you espouse leads people to focusing on prosperity, health, and self-gratification!

Give me a break :doh:

It better than leading people to be poor busted and disgusted, and staying sick , and being cursed.
Remember if you don`t have you can`t give, so i would rather be rich so I can help the poor be poor no more.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Just,

My replies are in bold.

The mere fact that baptism in water for the remission of sins is commanded makes the act essential. It is just as important as coming to the knowledge of the Gospel, repentance, confessing Christ as Lord and sowing to the Spirit.

I like that analogy, let's try another. The mere fact that speaking in tongues in the early chruch was evidence of a "true" water baptized believer means all water baptized "true" believers should speak in tongues today because Jesus commanded it.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mark 16:17

Just , do you speak in tongues?

All these are commandments of the Lord preached by the apostles. To deny one is to deny all as being essential.

Another analogy! How nice of you to further provide an example of the reasoning behind your theology.

Let's see, Jesus commanded that ... sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. Luke 18:22

Peter backed it up concerning Ananais.. why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Acts 5:3

Peter then condemns Sapphria to death for the same... How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Acts 5:9

Have you sold "all that thou hast" and given it to the poor? If not why are you still alive and on this forum spewing your false doctrine?


One is to do good works after they are added to the church, and failure to do so, as one lives the Christian life, will result in the loss of salvation eternally.

How sad it must be for you to have no assurance of your salvation. I can sing these words and believe them.... Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!

My assurance is Christ Jesus the Hopeofglory not my works.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:13
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:14

Where is the water in these verses of promise?

I have been "sealed" and Christ signed the contract with His blood and delivered it to the Father. My salvation does not depend on my "works" as those under the "law", it depends on the promise of God and the finished work of Christ. Why do you attemped to rob God of His glory?


Not by "works of righteousness" which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5


Whoever says that baptism is only for the saved are contrary to the scriptures. There is no way to sustain such a doctrine from Holy Writ.

Whoever says "Spirit" baptism is only for the saved would be right. Who ever says "water" baptism is for anybody today has no understanding of right division.

In Christ
Craig