The Gospel Of Thomas

[JosephR]

His disciples questioned him and said to him, “Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?" Jesus said, “Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered”.

This should be fun to discuss....It seems they were asking how to practice the "Religion" that Jesus wanted them to observe.

 

[Eeset]

I'm keenly interested in the infancy narratives because what we have from the synoptic Gospel writers, is quite limited information about Jesus and information which came from much earlier in time relative to that which was written about the time of His ministry.

The Disciples of Jesus had no first hand knowledge of his early years. Therefore whatever was written about his birth and childhood must have been secondhand knowledge of even more distant.

I think it a safe bet that few on this site believe the veracity of Levi H. Dowling.

 

[Pnevma]

His disciples questioned him and said to him, “Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?" Jesus said, “Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered”.

This should be fun to discuss....It seems they were asking how to practice the "Religion" that Jesus wanted them to observe.

My impression is that Jesus was telling them not to do anything they were not happy to do in their heart. – Don’t fast (even secretly) because ‘it’s the thing to do’, because the truth will be known in heaven.. Only do it if it pleases you to do it – not to do it for hope of reward, or to elevate yourself in the eyes of others.

I think it’s about lying in every sense, especially to oneself.:idunno:

 

[JosephR]

My impression is that Jesus was telling them not to do anything they were not happy to do in their heart. – Don’t fast (even secretly) because ‘it’s the thing to do’, because the truth will be known in heaven.. Only do it if it pleases you to do it – not to do it for hope of reward, or to elevate yourself in the eyes of others.

I think it’s about lying in every sense, especially to oneself.:idunno:

yup I agree. Do not tell lies, to anyone or yourself, If you lie you may deceive others, by word or actions.

Do not do what you hate.To me its because you will despise it,and you will be serving two masters and end up hating one. And anything that is in you or that you do is Hate,Hate can consume you and defile your soul.

for the last verse I looked this up.

In the Kingdom of Heaven the mind is an open book. This Gospel of the Kingdom has not been given to condemn those who have sinned, but rather it is given to prepare those who know they have sinned, and wish to turn from sin, and enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It is for these sinners that Christ came. Those who sin and do not realize that they have sinned, (the spiritually blind and dead), remain in their innocence, for they know not what they do.

I must say I agree with it very much.

 

[This Charming Manc]

The apostles thought so? None of them were at the making of the cannon,, sigh

Its a gnostic book, johns gospel written by John the apostle who was one of the guys who knew Jesus, is a complete repudiation of gnostic teaching and heresy.

The decision on canon was formed over a couple of hundred years, based up evidence of authorship and doctrinal agreement with what was known to be canon.

If you studied you would know this, you would also know that the list of books had been decided well before the council of nicea, and interesting academic article on how the canon was formed cam be found here

http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/New-Testament-Canon.pdf

Can you cite one piece of firm evidence that would back up why you think Thomas wrote the gospel of Thomas or it has any close source that knew jesus ?

all i've heard so far is you like the doctrine ....

 

[Pnevma]

yup I agree. Do not tell lies, to anyone or yourself, If you lie you may deceive others, by word or actions.

Do not do what you hate.To me its because you will despise it,and you will be serving two masters and end up hating one. And anything that is in you or that you do is Hate,Hate can consume you and defile your soul.

for the last verse I looked this up.

In the Kingdom of Heaven the mind is an open book. This Gospel of the Kingdom has not been given to condemn those who have sinned, but rather it is given to prepare those who know they have sinned, and wish to turn from sin, and enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It is for these sinners that Christ came. Those who sin and do not realize that they have sinned, (the spiritually blind and dead), remain in their innocence, for they know not what they do.

I must say I agree with it very much.

Yes, my feel of it is more to be… guileless is probably the word - like a child - non divisive.

It’s all pointless anyway, as it will all be seen.

There is a sense of peace to the idea.

 

[JosephR]

Its a gnostic book, johns gospel written by John the apostle who was one of the guys who knew Jesus, is a complete repudiation of gnostic teaching and heresy.

The decision on canon was formed over a couple of hundred years, based up evidence of authorship and doctrinal agreement with what was known to be canon.

If you studied you would know this, you would also know that the list of books had been decided well before the council of nicea, and interesting academic article on how the canon was formed cam be found here

http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/New-Testament-Canon.pdf

Can you cite one piece of firm evidence that would back up why you think Thomas wrote the gospel of Thomas or it has any close source that knew jesus ?

all i've heard so far is you like the doctrine ....

From your link...

Most of these Gnostic writings were
rejected because they had too many bizarre passages and thus were not able to develop
and keep a large audience. One important factor for any document to be affirmed as
“orthodox” and “inspired” was how much acceptance it received among the churches in
the various regions. This acceptance is typically reflected by if, and how often, the church
fathers cited the document.


WOW, popularity... no I will not adhear to popularity for my teachings...

Next

The first historical reference listing the exact 27 writings in the orthodox New
Testament is in the Easter Letter of Athanasius in 367 AD.

So you like your Pagan influenced Church pickings,,ok fine,, I dont..

367 AD... humm im no mathematician but thats well over 300 years from Jesus and all the apostles deaths,

Richard Valantasis writes:
Assigning a date to the Gospel of Thomas is very complex because it is difficult to know precisely to what a date is being assigned. Scholars have proposed a date as early as 40 AD or as late as 140 AD, depending upon whether the Gospel of Thomas is identified with the original core of sayings, or with the author's published text, or with the Greek or Coptic texts, or with parallels in other literature.[27]
Valantasis and other scholars argue that it is difficult to date Thomas because, as a collection of logia without a narrative framework, individual sayings could have been added to it gradually over time.[28] (However, Valantasis does date Thomas to 100 – 110 AD, with some of the material certainly coming from the first stratum which is dated to 30 – 60 AD.[


The whole 3rd page of this thread was made a circus and not on the Teachings of Jesus as it was meant.

I respect what you believe and I hope you will do the same for me.
I love Jesus and His teachings and I assure you there is no death or misleading here..

And of coarse this is an open thread and you can post all you want as many times as you want... but please.. if you have a problem with the teachings or interpretations then say so.. as far as the validity and source and if this is about Jesus I believe it is.. and nothing you can say will change my mind and it is noted 3 times now your opinion about that..

Now back to the teachings.. careful we might all learn something

 

[JosephR]

Yes, my feel of it is more to be… guileless is probably the word - like a child - non divisive.

It’s all pointless anyway, as it will all be seen.

There is a sense of peace to the idea.

Yes very much Peace as Jesus teaches nothing will be hidden from God.. so do not lie or do things you hate. Or if you do and try to be with guile like you say it is for naught.

 

[This Charming Manc]

The first historical reference listing the exact 27 writings in the orthodox New Testament is in the Easter Letter of Athanasius in 367 AD.

So you like your Pagan influenced Church pickings,,ok fine,, I dont..

367 AD... humm im no mathematician but thats well over 300 years from Jesus and all the apostles deaths,

So you take this quote and ignore the entire frame of the article which shows how the canon developed in a consistent manner over 200 years?

Cherry picking lines to cling your false belief that the canon was imposed on the church in the 4th century.

Can you also bring me any evidence that the church treated The Gospel of Thomas as authoritative at any time?

Assigning a date to the Gospel of Thomas is very complex because it is difficult to know precisely to what a date is being assigned. Scholars have proposed a date as early as 40 AD or as late as 140 AD, depending upon whether the Gospel of Thomas is identified with the original core of sayings, or with the author's published text, or with the Greek or Coptic texts, or with parallels in other literature.[27]
Valantasis and other scholars argue that it is difficult to date Thomas because, as a collection of logia without a narrative framework, individual sayings could have been added to it gradually over time.[28] (However, Valantasis does date Thomas to 100 – 110 AD, with some of the material certainly coming from the first stratum which is dated to 30 – 60 AD.

So even the gospels staunchest proponent puts a date on the Gospel 30 - 40 years after the apostle died (AD72), the gospel is placed in Egypt where the everything else we have puts Thomas in India.

Who do you think recorder these 'sayings of Jesus'?
Do you think they met Jesus?
Why did they falsely claim to be Thomas?
Why do there sayings paint a different picture to other gospels which we can be much more certain had apostolic authorship?

can you see why I woudl be very suspect of this 'Gospel'

 

[unknown]

Can one taste the pecan by examination of the tree it fell from? If one would taste the fruit he must crack the shell to get to the meat.

This thread is intended to discus what these sayings mean. I have seen no one claim to know who wrote them. That is not the point.

Modern scholarship has many opinions about this text as well as the Gospel of John, in fact, all of "John's" writings. There are many things we just do not know. (unknown). Some here appear to claim to know these things but what they know comes from what a church told them. The important part is in the understanding of whatever (if any) wisdom is here.

Perhaps those interested in examining the tree closer can start a separate thread and let the rest get to crackin'. Personally, I'm tired of looking at the trees so I probably wouldn't participate.

 

[JosephR]

Can one taste the pecan by examination of the tree it fell from? If one would taste the fruit he must crack the shell to get to the meat.

This thread is intended to discus what these sayings mean. I have seen no one claim to know who wrote them. That is not the point.

Modern scholarship has many opinions about this text as well as the Gospel of John, in fact all of "John's" writings. There are many things we just do not know. (unknown). Some here appear to claim to know these things but what they know comes from what a church told them. The important part is in the understanding of whatever (if any) wisdom is here.

Perhaps those interested in examining the tree closer can start a separate thread and let the rest get to crackin'. Personally, I'm tired of looking at the trees so I probably wouldn't participate.

Indeed.. it seems we can make some pretty decent ground however.

Anything to add to 6? if not im ready for 7 when you are.

 

[unknown]

Indeed.. it seems we can make some pretty decent ground however.

Anything to add to 6? if not im ready for 7 when you are.

Nothing to add. I am in agreement with you and Pnevma. I liked his comment about child like. It's odd to me at times, why we pretend to "know" so much about the Creator.

I think 7 may speak about the cycle of life. It puts me in remembrance of the movie Avatar.

(7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

 

[JosephR]

Nothing to add. I am in agreement with you and Pnevma. I liked his comment about child like. It's odd to me at times, why we pretend to "know" so much about the Creator.

I think 7 may speak about the cycle of life. It puts me in remembrance of the movie Avatar.

Yes it may.. I thought the same at first..

Jesus said, “Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man”.

I think the man is the spirit and the lion is the physical man..
To realize we are spiritual beings is blessed and to deny that and to think you are just physical would be a curse.

So maybe to realize what you really are.You will be what you believe you are. So in avatar the man became the avatar and in that realized who he really was.

ALSO in the cycle of life, a saying I know is, the green lion eats the sun... as in the sun makes the plants,, the plants feed other animals,,the lion eats all other animals,and dies and is made soil for the plant to start all over again..
So the green lion eats the sun.

 

[unknown]

Yes it may.. I thought the same at first..

Jesus said, “Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man”.

I think the man is the spirit and the lion is the physical man..
To realize we are spiritual beings is blessed and to deny that and to think you are just physical would be a curse.

So maybe to realize what you really are.You will be what you believe you are. So in avatar the man became the avatar and in that realized who he really was.

ALSO in the cycle of life, a saying I know is, the green lion eats the sun... as in the sun makes the plants,, the plants feed other animals,,the lion eats all other animals,and dies and is made soil for the plant to start all over again..
So the green lion eats the sun.

Thanks for that insight, I had not made the spirit/physical connection. I can see it now.

Some of these thoughts are foreign to me at first because they are expressed from the Coptic followers of Thomas. (I suppose) I don't know what Judaism had to say about this but the sages of Kabbalah have said that until a person has attained the first attainment (a desire for The Creator) his soul is that of a beast and he is not called "man".

 

[JosephR]

Thanks for that insight, I had not made the spirit/physical connection. I can see it now.

Some of these thoughts are foreign to me at first because they are expressed from the Coptic followers of Thomas. (I suppose) I don't know what Judaism had to say about this but the sages of Kabbalah have said that until a person has attained the first attainment (a desire for The Creator) his soul is that of a beast and he is not called "man".

Yeah one of my fav things about kabbalah is that it shows how to stop being an animal and start being a man.This echos of it very much.I think Jesus was very well knowledgeable of the hidden arts of His people. Of coarse my kabbalah is all from Hermetic path workings,up the tree of life, but very much rooted in traditional Jewish Kabbalah.

 

[JosephR]

Here is 8. It is in the other gospels as well and I compared.. some gospels say there are good fish and bad this one is different as in small fish and big.Anyone familiar with the 4 gospels of the Bible should be able to get the comparassion right away.


And he said, “The man is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear”.

This also echos the statement found in the 4, I will make you fishers of Men.

 

[unknown]

Yeah one of my fav things about kabbalah is that it shows how to stop being an animal and start being a man.This echos of it very much.I think Jesus was very well knowledgeable of the hidden arts of His people. Of coarse my kabbalah is all from Hermetic path workings,up the tree of life, but very much rooted in traditional Jewish Kabbalah.

Western traditions don't say much about what a "man" is. I think it would be an important thing to know if we ever hope to understand what God is.

I'm gonna take a break for a while. Maybe go outside and pick up what I hopes is the last of the pecans from this season. That last storm shook the trees just right and I got pecans all over the ground again.

 

[JosephR]

Western traditions don't say much about what a "man" is. I think it would be an important thing to know if we ever hope to understand what God is.

I'm gonna take a break for a while. Maybe go outside and pick up what I hopes is the last of the pecans from this season. That last storm shook the trees just right and I got pecans all over the ground again.

ok,We have been picking them up for a while now. Got prolly 30 lbs in the freezer so I am pecan-ed out for the year lol. We have 3 trees in the yard so we pick the pecans and I use the fallen wood to smoke ribs and chicken.. great tree the pecan tree is.

 

[JosephR]

Western traditions don't say much about what a "man" is. I think it would be an important thing to know if we ever hope to understand what God is.

I'm gonna take a break for a while. Maybe go outside and pick up what I hopes is the last of the pecans from this season. That last storm shook the trees just right and I got pecans all over the ground again.

Good point. In Genesis when God breathed life into the man He became a living soul.

7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

the breath is said to be the first soul, then the spirit, then the divine spirit.

Nefesh (נפש): the lower part, or "animal part", of the soul. It is linked to instincts and bodily cravings. This part of the soul is provided at birth.
Ruach (רוח): the middle soul, the "spirit". It contains the moral virtues and the ability to distinguish between good and evil.
Neshamah (נשמה): the higher soul, or "super-soul". This separates man from all other life-forms. It is related to the intellect and allows man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. It allows one to have some awareness of the existence and presence of God.

I wish ImJerusa was here she can explain this part very well.

Chayyah (חיה): The part of the soul that allows one to have an awareness of the divine life force itself.
Yehidah (יחידה): The highest plane of the soul, in which one can achieve as full a union with God as is possible.
Both rabbinic and kabbalistic works posit that there are a few additional, non-permanent states of the soul that people can develop on certain occasions. These extra souls, or extra states of the soul, play no part in any afterlife scheme, but are mentioned for completeness:
Ruach HaKodesh (רוח הקודש) ("spirit of holiness"): a state of the soul that makes prophecy possible. Since the age of classical prophecy passed, no one (outside of Israel) receives the soul of prophecy any longer. See the teachings of Abraham Abulafia for differing views of this matter.
Neshamah Yeseira: The "supplemental soul" that a Jew can experience on Shabbat. It makes possible an enhanced spiritual enjoyment of the day. This exists only when one is observing Shabbat; it can be lost and gained depending on one's observance.
Neshamah Kedosha: Provided to Jews at the age of maturity (13 for boys, 12 for girls) and is related to the study and fulfillment of the Torah commandments. It exists only when one studies and follows the Torah; it can be lost and gained depending on one's study and observance.

BTW I am not Jewish but I do remember and observe the Sabbath.
Out of respect for the Creator and His creation,IE Earth,Me and You and to partake of the yellow text above.

 

[Lion IRC]

The Disciples of Jesus had no first hand knowledge of his early years.

Thats not necessarily true. Some of the 12 may have known a younger Jesus.

The 12 included men who were followers of John the Baptist. (Jesus' cousin). It's plausible that some, along with John the Baptist, had earlier known the family of the younger Jesus.

2 of the 12 were the sons of Zebedee and Salome (Mary's sister.)

...Therefore whatever was written about his birth and childhood must have been secondhand knowledge of even more distant....

Would you agree with my basic argument that the writers of the canonical Gospels had closer access to eye witness sources for such infancy narratives than the later gnostic gospels?