The Gospel Of Thomas

[unknown]

I'm starting this thread due to a conversation in another thread. You're welcome to join in.

My personal thoughts on the logia.

"Great minds discuss ideas and concepts.
Average minds discuss things and places.
Small minds just talk about other people."

Many great minds have discussed many great ideas over the course of the development of the human consciousness. Contributions to the collective consciousness have been added throughout something we call history. We can index these contributions by date.

I have to take that into consideration while examining any text. I ask, where did this come from? Much of the logia are paralleled in the NT and those date back to Torah. Others have their parallels elsewhere. We are looking at a Coptic translation.

The Wiki article has info about the text and dating for those in doubt about what is believed about this text by others. How we know of it's existence from other texts (in their time) and so on.


Having said I that, I see the sayings (logia) as a collection of one particular "wisdom" of that time. I try to trace the source in time to see what school of thought produced it. The disciples (students) were sent out into the world; that's when they became Apostles. That's what the word means; sent out. It's the same root for the word postal i.e. to send something by the post office.

We see from various texts that these apostles (or whoever actually wrote the text in the name of the Apostles) did not always teach in the same manner with exactly the same understanding. That is the same thing we see in the real world today. A man goes to school and learns to be a preacher. Thousands of men attended the same course, received the same degree and teach different doctrine. Nothing new here.

So, as we go through the logia I will be asking for the origin (timewise) for the thought behind it. That will hopefully become more clear as/if the thread progresses.

 

[unknown]

Saying #1

Saying #1

Here is a link to The Gospel Of Thomas. http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

This text is on a Gnostic website but it is just the text itself and we do not need to know anything about Gnosticisim but those who do know something about it are welcome to share.

The Gospel Of Thomas (GT or logia from here on) is a collection of sayings that Jesus is reported to have spoke.

The introduction to the text says:

These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.

(1) And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

This is pretty straight forward and doesn't need much explanation. From my own personal experience, I take the last part "will not experience death" to mean not the carnal way men think of death of a body. That is a literal/peshat understanding of the word death. Understanding what is meant by "death" is found in the book of Genesis. God said the man would die and he lived for 950 years after doing the deed. What happened? Man was separated from God. That is death; and so the verse is saying, to me, if I can understand these things I will not be separated from God.

 

[jeremysdemo]

I'd love to discuss Thomas.

and the coptic traditions.

 

[unknown]

I'd love to discuss Thomas.

and the coptic traditions.

Cool; because I know nothing about Coptic except it is tied to Egypt some how.

 

[unknown]

Saying #2

Saying #2

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

From what I remember about Gnosticisim, "The All" is a reference to the spiritual environment, the forces that influence a soul.

The rest is pretty understandable until the word "troubled" and the word "astonished". "Trouble" is considered suffering, astonishment is complete correction of the desire that caused the suffering. IOW the realization of the thought of The Creator. When His thoughts become our thoughts we will indeed be astonished.

To actually "rule over" the All gives me a bit of a problem. I see a more of balancing or equalization; "the all" is always influencing. Our efforts are to be at rest or in balance with our environment. I guess we could say "rule over" in the sense we have mastered this balancing act.

 

[JosephR]

From what I remember about Gnosticisim, "The All" is a reference to the spiritual environment, the forces that influence a soul.

The rest is pretty understandable until the word "troubled" and the word "astonished". "Trouble" is considered suffering, astonishment is complete correction of the desire that caused the suffering. IOW the realization of the thought of The Creator. When His thoughts become our thoughts we will indeed be astonished.

To actually "rule over" the All gives me a bit of a problem. I see a more of balancing or equalization; "the all" is always influencing. Our efforts are to be at rest or in balance with our environment. I guess we could say "rule over" in the sense we have mastered this balancing act.

From a purely Gnostic point I think the ALL refers to the part of GOD in us all.From now on I will talk of God as Creator.

It should be a terrible trouble, this awakening or enlightenment He is writing about.I think this is outside of the normal programming to realize this but over all is the point. I looked over a book about meeting your guardian Angel. It said when you meet Him regard Him as a Deity and Fear Him, but at the end of the troubling, you will realize that it is the real you but you will not be familiar with the real you . It will be alien to you and terrifying, so to me this hits on the troubling.. and then of coarse the astonishing.. the realization of truth.

When you realize your true self and except it, then I think the RULE OVER part begins.

Just my thoughts on the verse so far.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Thomas : 118 [114]. Simon Peter says to them: "Let Mary go out from our midst, for women are not worthy of life!" Jesus says: "See, I will draw her so as to make her male so that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who has become male will enter the Kingdom of heaven."

Seems enough by itself to know the writing is a piece of trash.

 

[JosephR]

Thomas : 118 [114]. Simon Peter says to them: "Let Mary go out from our midst, for women are not worthy of life!" Jesus says: "See, I will draw her so as to make her male so that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who has become male will enter the Kingdom of heaven."

Seems enough by itself to know the writing is a piece of trash.

Well.... Jesus said in the resurrection we will be as Angels and not marry anymore.. could this be that being eternal we will shed the need to be male or female or to reproduce? therefore, He is saying all will be equal?

 

[JosephR]

Thomas : 118 [114]. Simon Peter says to them: "Let Mary go out from our midst, for women are not worthy of life!" Jesus says: "See, I will draw her so as to make her male so that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who has become male will enter the Kingdom of heaven."

Seems enough by itself to know the writing is a piece of trash.

He says so as,He didnt do it literally so as to make her, so I think its spiritual and not physical..

And He is showing the males that women,spiritually will be equal, "Like you males",,?? So any woman who sheds Her need to be a reproductive being, just like the saved men will shed it too. I think He is saying "like you males" whom think they are better then women.. and He is correcting them

Maybe?

 

[Angel4Truth]

He says so as,He didnt do it literally so as to make her, so I think its spiritual and not physical..

And He is showing the males that women,spiritually will be equal, "Like you males",,?? So any woman who sheds Her need to be a reproductive being, just like the saved men will shed it too. I think He is saying "like you males" whom think they are better then women.. and He is correcting them

Maybe?

Seriously? There is no male or female in Christ, there would be no need for a woman to become a man even in a spiritual sense and its doubtful peter said a woman is not worthy of life.

 

[JosephR]

Seriously? There is no male or female in Christ, there would be no need for a woman to become a man even in a spiritual sense and its doubtful peter said a woman is not worthy of life.

right ,,thats what I am saying,He is showing them there is no male or female in Christ.

not that they will become males,but they will all be without male/female status.

 

[Angel4Truth]

right ,,thats what I am saying,He is showing them there is no male or female in Christ.

not that they will become males,but they will all be without male/female status.

No, the gospel of thomas is a gnostic text, and carries those views, that excerpt was due to the fact that in the gnostic view, an evil woman is who made creation, and Jesus role was to rid the world of the wicked influence of women.


Being that there is no male or female in Christ, even to become a male instead of a spirit shows your application errant.

 

[JosephR]

No, the gospel of thomas is a gnostic text, and carries those views, that excerpt was due to the fact that in the gnostic view, an evil woman is who made creation, and Jesus role was to rid the world of the wicked influence of women.


Being that there is no male or female in Christ, even to become a male instead of a spirit shows your application errant.

Well, I dont per-scribe to the notion that men can make one book holy and call another Gnostic. I am not familiar with the evil woman story,or the ridding of the womans influance.do you mean Lilith?

And I dont mean a male in spirit, I mean in spirit there is no male or female. I agree with you there very much.

And about Peter and what He said, He was still a student under His Master Jesus and being taught and said many things and done many things you wouldn't expect a disciple to do. But givin that He was still a student and the way the world viewed women at that time as beneath men, you see it in other places in the Bible as well, I dont have a hard time believing He said that.

But of coarse I respect your view and opinion
I like the , un cannon so called Gnostic text however.

However if it is what you say it is then I totally understand your position, just I have never heard of that before.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Well, I dont per-scribe to the notion that men can make one book holy and call another Gnostic. I am not familiar with the evil woman story,or the ridding of the womans influance.do you mean Lilith?

And I dont mean a male in spirit, I mean in spirit there is no male or female. I agree with you there very much.

And about Peter and what He said, He was still a student under His Master Jesus and being taught and said many things and done many things you wouldn't expect a disciple to do. But givin that He was still a student and the way the world viewed women at that time as beneath men, you see it in other places in the Bible as well, I dont have a hard time believing He said that.

But of coarse I respect your view and opinion
I like the , un cannon so called Gnostic text however.

However if it is what you say it is then I totally understand your position, just I have never heard of that before.

study the views of the gnostics and youll see the many ways they deny Christ in reality and have some seriously warped views. The claims to having "special knowledge" that no one else has or can have, is a signature line for cults.

 

[unknown]

The spiritual roles of men and women differ in Judaism. Male represents bestowal and female represents reception. Google the word "minyan" to learn more about the Jewish thought on women in a minyan.

This is not a gnostic idea.

A4T is on my ignore list.

 

[unknown]

As mentioned in the OP. Apostles were "sent out". They were sent out to make disciples and they each had their own followers and their own teaching and their own teaching style.

If one examines the Hebrew writings one can see that the teachings and I mean hours and hours of teaching for years sometimes, are summed up in phrases and even one word for some teachings. You can see this in the names of the sages, Rabash for example is Rav Baruch Ashlog. If one cannot grasp this concept the 4 letter tetragrammaton for the name of God will not be understood. That name is the patten for all creation. It means, in essence, to be/to exist.

It describes the four phases of direct light. "Light" is the Kabbalistic metaphor for The Creator. The word light is used because it comes the closet to having qualities similar to The Creator. It is not to be thought of as anything but a metaphor.

I believe Thomas wrote these sayings down only to outline what Jesus had taught him. Not what Jesus taught Peter or Matthew; their understanding of Jesus' teachings was different just like those men who all come from the same religious institute with the same degree and still teach different things.

There is a book called Shamati, the name means "I have Heard". It was written by Rabash (RavBaruch Ashlog) and is a collection of things he heard his father (Rav Yehuda Ashlog) say while expounding on certain points of Kabbalah. He wrote no explanations for what he heard only what was said. I think Thomas employed that same method so we are left not knowing the teachings just the core saying of the teaching.

 

[unknown]

I am well familiar with the complaint that the Gnostics claimed some kind of special knowledge. What seems to to be misunderstood by those making the complaints is that this knowledge is the same as the knowledge spoke of by the other disciples in the NT. It is divine revelation. It first happened on the day of Pentecost. Nothing new here except the language used. Gnosis can not be taught, the divine revelations of the HS can not be taught; they are the same thing and can only be experienced.

As I mentioned, the apostles taught their disciples in their way. Their disciples would naturally use the language of their teacher/Rabbi/master.

 

[unknown]

"Great minds discuss ideas and concepts.
Average minds discuss things and places.
Small minds just talk about other people."

Those who have come to complain about the Gnostics are those with the small minds I mentioned in post #2. They will not be able to discuss the ideas and concepts contained in the logia. I tried to leave a hint but in hindsight I guess a small mind would miss it.

 

[unknown]

Saying #3

Saying #3

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

This has a parallel in the NT that we are all familiar with. It seems clear to me, so I have no comment here.

 

[jeremysdemo]

Thomas : 118 [114]. Simon Peter says to them: "Let Mary go out from our midst, for women are not worthy of life!" Jesus says: "See, I will draw her so as to make her male so that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who has become male will enter the Kingdom of heaven."

Seems enough by itself to know the writing is a piece of trash.

that is a good point.

it is no wonder that saying is absent from all the other gospels,

while at the same time, so many of the sayings are synoptic.