The existence of Satan makes no sense.

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fcisd

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badp said:
No, but God obviously gave him a choice, and Satan chose rebellion.
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I know he gave Satan a choice, but that doesn't answer the question as to why the world got affect for sin entering it while heaven didn't. You also said Satan did not have free will, how is he able to make a choice?

We're condemned for our own actions. When a baby dies, God doesn't condemn the baby to hell because Adam sinned.
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The bible says that we are cursed with this sin of adam.
 
F

fcisd

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ttruscott said:
Ummm, but it did, no?

Heaven = the garden. The sin of the angels had them thrown out of heaven into the earth. The sin of Adam and Eve had them thrown out of the garden into the earth.

They were both thrown into the same existence because if the judgment against the Satanic had happened before Adam and Eve (and all they symbolized) were holy, they too would have been condemned with the satanic (lest they be uprooted too, parable of the good seed).

No sin was allowed to stay in heaven; no sin was allowed to stay in the garden. Our lives of suffering and death are restricted to Prison Earth and our hope is in the rehab centre of the Christian gospel inside the prison.
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So ok Heaven = the Garden, so here we go again.. why didn't it change? Is there suffering in heaven, do people die (again) in heaven, are there animals that brutally eat each other, are there murders up in heaven? No. I'm not asking if sin was allowed, i'm asking how come are world got it's results because of sin entering it and heaven did not?

Next, based on your post. The whole sin was in heaven, so in short it's still possible to sin up there. If that is the case, then how do we know that the other angels like Micheal, Gabriel, or the Saints like Mary, Joseph, or the people we loved that passed away are still up there? Apparently it's possible for a high angel to sin and get cast down so with all the thousands of years that passed by, is it possible for other known/good figures to have sinned at some point with in these thousands of years?
 
L

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jamie said:
Why would God punish righteous angels?

You were the anointed cherub who covers, I established you. You were on the holy mountain of God, you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. (Ezekiel 28:14-15 NKJV)​
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Satan was never in Heaven, nor is he, or was he, an angel.

Man fell from what He was first created.

LA
 
D

dialm

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jamie said:
Why would God punish righteous angels?

You were the anointed cherub who covers, I established you. You were on the holy mountain of God, you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. (Ezekiel 28:14-15 NKJV)​
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Will you prove that there are righteous Angels?
 
W

Wick Stick

Well-known member
fcisd said:
I'm having a problem trying to believe in the existence of Satan for many reasons. It's like his existence logically contradicts the popular view of God being a just God.

Satan is believed to be a former high angel, who fell from heaven because he either hated Man, rebelled against God or both. Now, this world is a suffering world.. we die, there is pain, there is evil, the world is just damaged because sin entered it through Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve fell into the temptation of the Serpent, so the serpent is accepted to be Satan which means his fall pre dates the Garden of Eden.

So here is the problem, if this world became what it is because of Adam and Eve sinning, then why didn't heaven get the same results if the actual first sin was done in heaven - through Satan?

There is more to this question, but i'll just start off here because every religion forum i've been to can't answer this.
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Most churches have failed to interpret the story of Adam and Eve and the fall.

The snake is symbolic of wisdom; not Satan.

"the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field"

"tree of knowledge"

"in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened"

"a tree to be desired to make one wise"

Actually, the snake was a symbol for wisdom throughout the ancient near east. Notice:

"Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves"

It's also a symbol for chaos, and the emblem of the tribe of Dan. Actually, "satan" is in the story, too, but it's prior to his fall. :)

Jarrod
 
Nick M

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fcisd said:
Adam and Eve fell into the temptation of the Serpent, so the serpent is accepted to be Satan which means his fall pre dates the Garden of Eden.
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Why not just go with what the Bible says rather than what the heathen claim?
 
CherubRam

CherubRam

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jamie said:
Why would God punish righteous angels?

You were the anointed cherub who covers, I established you. You were on the holy mountain of God, you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. (Ezekiel 28:14-15 NKJV)​
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You are reading a parable. Satan is used in parables to mean (adversary / opposition.)
God established the nation of Israel. Israel was the anointed cherub. Fiery stones is men of judgement.
 
jamie

jamie

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dialm said:
Will you prove that there are righteous Angels?
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For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved for judgment... (2 Peter 2:4 NKJV)​

The angels who sinned will be judged with regard to life or death and the angels who have not sinned have no need of judgment.
 
This Charming Manc

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
Because God had given man dominion over the earth so when we feel creation fell.

Satan has no dominion over heaven, so his fall has no effect.

So hard to answer?

fcisd said:
I'm having a problem trying to believe in the existence of Satan for many reasons. It's like his existence logically contradicts the popular view of God being a just God.

Satan is believed to be a former high angel, who fell from heaven because he either hated Man, rebelled against God or both. Now, this world is a suffering world.. we die, there is pain, there is evil, the world is just damaged because sin entered it through Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve fell into the temptation of the Serpent, so the serpent is accepted to be Satan which means his fall pre dates the Garden of Eden.


So here is the problem, if this world became what it is because of Adam and Eve sinning, then why didn't heaven get the same results if the actual first sin was done in heaven - through Satan?

There is more to this question, but i'll just start off here because every religion forum i've been to can't answer this.
Click to expand...
 
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