ECT The core of the argument between Christians and MAD.

[Arsenios]

They had been preaching "the gospel" well before Luke 24, and didn't have a clue about any of this.

It cannot be the same "the gospel" as 1 Cor 15:1-4.

You know, I know it. Anyone with a modicum of common sense knows it.

Why fight it?

You must show where the one is denied by the other...

If not, they are the same Gospel...

Arsenios

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You must show where the one is denied by the other...

If not, they are the same Gospel...

Arsenios

Nah

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Christ? He IS the Kingdom of Heaven...

Matthew 11:12 (KJV)

explain

 

[andyc]

John 8:23 (KJV)

He was not of this world, yet there he was, on the earth.

Which is why he headed out. "You will seek me and not find me, and where I am you cannot come"?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Which is why he headed out. "You will seek me and not find me, and where I am you cannot come"?

Did he say he was coming back? To stay?

 

[andyc]

Indeed so, which is why those in the Kingdom of Heaven upon this Earth are not OF this world...

The Body of Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.

"Thou hast prepared a Table before me...
In the presence of them that afflict me..."

Arsenios

:up:

 

[andyc]

Did he say he was coming back? Yes To stay? NO

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

To stay? Andy says No.


Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Revelation 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Revelation 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

Revelation 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

Revelation 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Revelation 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.



All of this takes place "in heaven" I guess.

 

[andyc]

To stay? Andy says No.


Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Revelation 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Revelation 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

Revelation 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

Revelation 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Revelation 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.



All of this takes place "in heaven" I guess.

Yeah the mistake is pretty obvious, as the whole thing is picture language. 'Heaven' can refer to the spiritual kingdom and 'the sky', and of course context is key. If John saw something descending from heaven to earth, it couldn't be descending from the spiritual realm to earth. Because the things in the spiritual real are not physical and not physically visible.
I think if I remember, the dimensions would mean that the city would go off about 15 miles into space.

So, it's picture language explaining the heavenly city in ways that we can understand with our natural minds. Not literal.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Yeah the mistake is pretty obvious, as the whole thing is picture language. 'Heaven' can refer to the spiritual kingdom and 'the sky', and of course context is key. If John saw something descending from heaven to earth, it couldn't be descending from the spiritual realm to earth. Because the things in the spiritual real are not physical and not physically visible.
I think if I remember, the dimensions would mean that the city would go off about 15 miles into space.

So, it's picture language explaining the heavenly city in ways that we can understand with our natural minds. Not literal.

Oh

 

[andyc]

Oh

Do you think there's going to be a whore riding on a beast with seven heads walking onto the beach?

A lot of things in the bible that are understood as mysteries are described using picture language. Babylon is understood as the kingdom of darkness, and the new Jerusalem is the kingdom of God. Both mysteries, both spiritual.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Do you think there's going to be a whore riding on a beast with seven heads walking onto the beach?

A lot of things in the bible that are understood as mysteries are described using picture language. Babylon is understood as the kingdom of darkness, and the new Jerusalem is the kingdom of God. Both mysteries, both spiritual.

What is the place the Lord Jesus said he was preparing, when he went away?

 

[andyc]

What is the place the Lord Jesus said he was preparing, when he went away?

Again, it's pictorial. I seriously doubt there are literal mansions in heaven, or streets paved with gold. Just like I don't think there will be people literally on fire and eaten by worms forever in hell. In heaven it will be better, and in hell it will be worse.
Spiritual ecstasy and agony can't be described the same way it will be experienced.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Show where the 12 preached 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the good news in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John when they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom!

The good news of the coming Kingdom being near is the end result and the means of its coming and how people may enter is all the same message of the gospel.

Wise men knew all along what the sacrifices of the Temple meant.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.



It's the same testimony Peter gave in Matthew 16



Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The WHO of Jesus Christ is not the gospel by which man is saved today.

In acts chapter 2 Peter declared to the 3000 just who Jesus really was and what had resulted through his death and His ascension.

They asked "what shall we do" to be saved from their own death sentence I presume.

Peter told them how to be saved.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

What is the kingdom of heaven?

This:

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Jesus could not have been speaking of a supposed Jewish millennium, when He was speaking of the Kingdom of God, now could He?

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

If Jesus Told Them EVERYTHING, why did He return to tell Paul more ?

Pauls ministry was mainly for those who already believed the gospel.

1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

However other men also planted and Paul did not have anything to do with it--

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

So to say Paul was the first, is just another deception to distance oneself from Acts 2:38, which Paul himself preached to the Eph 12 in acts ch 19.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yeah the mistake is pretty obvious, as the whole thing is picture language. 'Heaven' can refer to the spiritual kingdom and 'the sky', and of course context is key. If John saw something descending from heaven to earth, it couldn't be descending from the spiritual realm to earth. Because the things in the spiritual real are not physical and not physically visible.
I think if I remember, the dimensions would mean that the city would go off about 15 miles into space.

So, it's picture language explaining the heavenly city in ways that we can understand with our natural minds. Not literal.

The description is given in symbols but is actual and will be visible.

It is the Heavenly city of the saints soon to be established on the earth beginning at Jerusalem.

(no stone temple necessary)

LA

 

[steko]

Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Jesus could not have been speaking of a supposed Jewish millennium, when He was speaking of the Kingdom of God, now could He?

LA

Did the Lord tell them that the Kingdom was not going to be restored to Israel?

 

[musterion]

Again, it's pictorial. I seriously doubt there are literal mansions in heaven, or streets paved with gold. Just like I don't think there will be people literally on fire and eaten by worms forever in hell. In heaven it will be better, and in hell it will be worse.
Spiritual ecstasy and agony can't be described the same way it will be experienced.

Wow.