Show me the good news

[Right Divider]

A) He is addressing foreigners .. I don't know about you but that is not how I would address my brethren ... unless I was addressing gentile brethren.

The reason that he is addressing them AS STRANGERS is because HIS kinsmen were dispersed into FOREIGN lands.

B) You ducked my points about about sheep/goats, elect and grace. I think that telling.

No, I did not. I showed you what Peter meant by HIS use of 'elect'. Here is is AGAIN since you didn't seem to read it the first time.

Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
​

There is NO sense in me trying to explain anything else until you can understand these simple things.

C) As it regards my knowledge of the word of God I think your knowledge of that subject sufficiently sparse to label your estimation of it premature at best. After all, you know little of my contributions to this site over the years. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't necessitate them being ignorant. There are other possibilities.

I'm so proud of you.

1Pe 2:5-12 KJV Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, (8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (11) Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
​

Peter is clearing referring to ISRAEL here, as in:

Exo 19:5-6 KJV Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.​

 

[achduke]

We're not grafted into anything, but baptized by one Spirit into one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV).

Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

 

[patrick jane]

Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

heir can tell you, or steko or stp

View attachment 20734

 

[Right Divider]

Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

Are you aware that there are two types of Gentiles? There are Gentiles that blessed Israel and those that did not. God did not treat them the same.... until the dispensation of the grace of God where He has mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:32 KJV For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
​

 

[achduke]

Are you aware that there are two types of Gentiles? There are Gentiles that blessed Israel and those that did not. God did not treat them the same.... until the dispensation of the grace of God where He has mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:32 KJV For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
​

The Word Gentile means People or Nations and sometimes heathens. The House of Israel was dispersed among the nations to be as Gentiles when they continued to disobey God. Assyria captured them and took them away never to return. Mostly the House of Judah (Jews) remain today but the rest of Israel remains dispersed until the last day.

Who do you think the All is referencing in Romans 11:32? Everyone in the world? Israel or Gentiles?

 

[heir]

Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree

They weren't "being grafted in". They were already in, but notice they were in danger of being cut off (as Israel had fallen Romans 11:11 KJV, Romans 11:25 KJV) unless they continued in God's goodness (Romans 11:22 KJV). The only way to do that (as they say) was to be established (Romans 1:10-12 KJV) and that by the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16-17 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

 

[Right Divider]

The Word Gentile means People or Nations and sometimes heathens. The House of Israel was dispersed among the nations to be as Gentiles when they continued to disobey God. Assyria captured them and took them away never to return. Mostly the House of Judah (Jews) remain today but the rest of Israel remains dispersed until the last day.

Who do you think the All is referencing in Romans 11:32? Everyone in the world? Israel or Gentiles?

Wrong.... they will be gathered from the four winds when the time comes.

Mat 24:29-31 KJV Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:24-27 KJV But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Isa 11:10-12 KJV And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. (11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. (12) And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.​

 

[jzeidler]

of your salvation!

Where is it found in the Bible?

What is it and how is one saved?

The gospel of my salvation is that Jesus did all the work on my behalf, became my sin and died on my behalf, rose again that I might have new life, I believe that is true and trust that he did all this for me and rest in his goodness knowing that I am loved, righteous, holy, and secure because my salvation doesn't rest upon my actions it rests upon Jesus'.

 

[oatmeal]

Heir,



Believing who Jesus Christ is is only the first half of Romans 10:9. Therefore, if that is actually all you did or understood from Romans 10:9, then you were not saved at that point.

Confessing the Lord Jesus does not get anyone saved for there are two requirements, the other being that we believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead.

You are right, Romans 10:9-10 does not tell us why Jesus willingly obeyed His Father to die on our behalf.

Personally, I believe that there are many people, church goers, even present day God rejectors who at one time did meet the two requirements of Romans 10:9 and have received the gift of salvation, but they do not yet know it. I John 5:13. Again, personally, I believe that I received the gift of salvation when in grade school. I doubt I understood the word salvation or was even concerned about being saved, but neither of those two issues are one of the two requirements of receiving salvation. We can receive the gift of salvation without knowing what it is we received, even as we receive a gift nicely wrapped without knowing what is in it.



Again personally, did I have some huge backlog of sins at the age of say 7 that compelled me to seek salvation? No. But confessing the Lord Jesus and believing in my heart that God raised him from the dead seemed a good idea to me so I did it. Was I familiar with Romans 10:9? No, I was not, but as long as I had heard that Jesus is Lord .... I could believe that without knowing why the cross.

You are right, there is no mention of the cross in Romans 10:9-10.

What does a person need to know to reach the two conclusions? Certainly, knowing the cross could be part of realizing that Jesus is Lord but we must get beyond the cross and realize that God raised him from the dead.

I am quite sure, having attended RCC parochial school that I would have learned of the cross and other things.

You are right, Romans 10:9-10 does not tell us why Jesus willingly obeyed His Father to die on our behalf.

But here we must learn that that is not the point of Romans 10:9-10.

The point of Romans 10:9-10 is to tell us how to receive salvation, it most certainly does not tell us all we need to know to reach the conclusions of Romans 10:9-10. The information we need to reach those two conclusions is in many other passages of scripture, not in Romans 10:9.

If some one asks me how to receive the gift of salvation from God, I tell them to do Romans 10:9-10, those are the only two requirements to receive.

However, you point out correctly that we must know enough about the whats, whys, whos, etc. to reach those conclusions.

If someone asked me how I reached those conclusions then I would have to tell them much much more than Romans 10:9.

Which if I now read you correctly is your point.

Do I read you correctly?

In order to do Romans 10:9 a person has to understand what the requirements are.

They have to know something about who Jesus is, what "Lord" means, who God is, what death is, what it means to be raised from the dead, who raised who.

That would be things a person would need to comprehend before they could reach the two conclusions of Romans 10:9

If a person wants to know who God is, who Jesus Christ is, etc., that would be the place to start with them.

 

[fzappa13]

I'm so proud of you.

1Pe 2:5-12 KJV Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, (8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (11) Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
​

Peter is clearing referring to ISRAEL here, as in:

Exo 19:5-6 KJV Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.​

Like Heir, you don't even bother to read the verses you offer. The "people" Peter is addressing were not even considered a people up until that point and grafting Ex 19 onto the passage doesn't change that. Rather than create some sort of Frankenstein with other books let's stick with 1 Pet shall we?

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So, if I understand your position correctly, you don't think he's talking to you here. You're not awaiting an inheritance. Faith doesn't have anything to do with your salvation and you're not waiting on "the last time" for it to be revealed ... all because you already got into the Kingdom of God another way ... gotcha.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

...but this doesn't apply to you, it's talking about those unfortunant Jews. You're not tempted at any point. Gotcha.

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

... and this isn't talking to you either. Your faith won't be tried because you are much too precious to God to have to endure that. That sort of stuff is reserved for His only begotten Son and those unfortunate Jews. Gotcha.

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

What? Waiting for the END of your faith which is the salvation of our souls? Well, he surely can't be talking to you because you received the reward of your faith the minute you received the proper doctrine, right? Must be some different kind of faith, right?

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

... and he must be talking about some different kind of grace, right?

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

This is what really blows my mind; you think Christ died for the Jews only. That's who He was sent to, right?

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

There's that waiting business again but, he can't be talking about you because you've got much more important things to do than wait. Can't be bothered so, let's adopt a doctrine that gives it all to us right now with no sacrifice. I understand the inclination but ... I don't see a scriptural justification for it.

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

Ignorance? Now I know he's not talking about you. You're the smartest guy in the room if your proclamations are to be believed.

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Be Holy? Only those unfortunate Jews have to worry about that. They have to do something to receive the reward of their faith but not you. Gotcha.

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

"Without respect of persons"? "Work"? Wait a minute. He's got a special work free, suffer free fate in store for you because He respects you more, right? Therefore he can't be talking to you.





I wouldn't bet eternity on it if I were you.





Wanna keep going with 1 Peter?

 

[Lon]

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[achduke]

They weren't "being grafted in". They were already in, but notice they were in danger of being cut off (as Israel had fallen Romans 11:11 KJV, Romans 11:25 KJV) unless they continued in God's goodness (Romans 11:22 KJV). The only way to do that (as they say) was to be established (Romans 1:10-12 KJV) and that by the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16-17 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

I see what you mean. So you believe that no one is grafted in anymore?

 

[achduke]

Wrong.... they will be gathered from the four winds when the time comes.

Mostly the House of Judah (Jews) remain today but the rest of Israel remains dispersed until the last day.

 

[fzappa13]

I guess what concerns me the most about the doctrines many here at TOL have embraced is that they necessitate two kinds of grace, two kinds of faith and, ultimately two different Jesuses. One of each for Jew and Gentile and for the life of me I can't torture that out of the Word of God no matter how hard I try.

 

[fzappa13]

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

There is always a caveat to the promises. We hear the promises but not the caveat.

 

[Nick M]

Then who is being grafted in Romans 11?

Knowing this is already addressed, why ask again?

 

[disturbo]

RD said,

I showed you what Peter meant by HIS use of 'elect'. Here is is AGAIN since you didn't seem to read it the first time.

Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

There is NO sense in me trying to explain anything else until you can understand these simple things.

Using the Old Testament word 'elect' to define the New Testament word 'elect' would indicate YOU are the one who doesn't understand simple things. Worse yet, is that you fabricate to change the meaning of the New Testament word.

Maybe a simple study of Romans 11:7 would help you understand simple things...

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[achduke]

Knowing this is already addressed, why ask again?

I wanted heir's opinion. She always has interesting incite. Although I do not always agree with her I do respect her thoughts.

 

[fzappa13]

RD said,


Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.



Using the Old Testament word 'elect' to define the New Testament word 'elect' would indicate YOU are the one who doesn't understand simple things. Worse yet, is that you fabricate to change the meaning of the New Testament word.

:darwinsm: Exactly.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

 

[chrysostom]

john 3:16