Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?

[aikido7]

Just to put my two cents in, I am a paleoconservative, not a neoconservative. As to stem cell research, I have no argument as long as it is not tied to abortion.

I sure don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I would like to know what you mean when you say "paleoconservative." I have run across the word recently and want to know how it came to be and who claims to be one. I am way too tired to consult Google tonight. Please don't take that last sentence to mean I do not want to check it out for myself.

 

[Lighthouse]

Ah, the ad homs yet again....can you get it through your own skull that you would have a society based on fear instead of loving relationships? Can you imagine how the marriage rate would actually plummet because of the possible consequences if it fell apart? How would having 'less people dying' apply when adultery is presently not a capital crime anyway???!! do you seriously get that? You would sooner have a state control over peoples private lives and would sooner see people killed for infidelity than giving them any chance whatsoever to repair their relationship and family regardless.....

You can't seem to get it that people would be more likely to stop committing adultery than they would to stop getting married. And the only people who would be afraid are the ones who desire to commit crimes. And, well, they should be afraid to commit crimes. It would make them commit less crimes.:idea:

Right.....if this is supposed to be in conjunction with backwards states that do have the death penalty for adultery still then I dread to think what else they have it for as well - as well as barabric punishments for other offences that wouldnt be tolerated in an enlightened society....maybe you can inform me as to what you're driving at....

There is nothing enlightened about the rejection of God in your dark heart.

And that's the only sin that they would have been guilty of is it, breaking the law of Moses??????? C'mon LH!!!!

Seeing as how all sins are listed in that law, and any breaking of any of those laws was sin for them, then yes. Or were you attempting to be more specific?

Yes I do realise that, it was a long long time ago and we've progressed from such stark times - havent we......?

No. We've gone away from God, and that is the opposite of progress. Divorce rates are up. Adultery is up. Fornication is up. Do you see a pattern here?

 

[red77]

You can't seem to get it that people would be more likely to stop committing adultery than they would to stop getting married. And the only people who would be afraid are the ones who desire to commit crimes. And, well, they should be afraid to commit crimes. It would make them commit less crimes.:idea:

You must be joking, if you cant see how the marriage rates would plummet then there's little point in trying to spell it out for you, its an invasion into the private lives of people full stop, I for one dont want anyone nosing into my private life whether its the state or anyone else because it's noone elses business but my own and my nearest and dearest

There is nothing enlightened about the rejection of God in your dark heart.

if my heart is dark because I dont want to see a society where people are killed because of state invasion into their private relationships then yep, it's pitch black....

Seeing as how all sins are listed in that law, and any breaking of any of those laws was sin for them, then yes. Or were you attempting to be more specific?

They were all with sin and they knew it, none of them would have been honestly able to cast a stone, its so simple really....

No. We've gone away from God, and that is the opposite of progress. Divorce rates are up. Adultery is up. Fornication is up. Do you see a pattern here?

Well i'm sorry that you would have us return to some medieval dark age where the state intervenes in peoples private lives and would kill them, real progress that is..... :doh:

 

[Lighthouse]

You must be joking, if you cant see how the marriage rates would plummet then there's little point in trying to spell it out for you, its an invasion into the private lives of people full stop, I for one dont want anyone nosing into my private life whether its the state or anyone else because it's noone elses business but my own and my nearest and dearest

You're an idiot if you think they would plummet. And here's another little note for you, I didn't say you were an idiot. There's a condition.

if my heart is dark because I dont want to see a society where people are killed because of state invasion into their private relationships then yep, it's pitch black....

Was God barbaric when He gave the command originally? Yes, or no.

They were all with sin and they knew it, none of them would have been honestly able to cast a stone, its so simple really....

And they all knew that they were not following the Law in that specific matter, too. They were sinning in regard to law on adultery, and the punishment thereof.

Well i'm sorry that you would have us return to some medieval dark age where the state intervenes in peoples private lives and would kill them, real progress that is..... :doh:

So God's command was from the Dark Ages?

 

[red77]

You're an idiot if you think they would plummet. And here's another little note for you, I didn't say you were an idiot. There's a condition.

what do you think they would do, rise?! :dizzy:

Was God barbaric when He gave the command originally? Yes, or no.

It was a command for a much harsher age in general, many things that we would balk at in a civilised society would have been accepted at that time

And they all knew that they were not following the Law in that specific matter, too. They were sinning in regard to law on adultery, and the punishment thereof.

They were guilty of sin - end of, they would have been complete hypocrites to have cast a stone,

So God's command was from the Dark Ages?

Yes, considering how things were then I would say that sums it up, we dont live in the dark ages anymore thankfully......

 

[Lighthouse]

what do you think they would do, rise?! :dizzy:

Did I say that? I don't think I did. But I do know that divorce rates would drop.

It was a command for a much harsher age in general, many things that we would balk at in a civilised society would have been accepted at that time

That's cute how you weasel your way out of it like that.

They were guilty of sin - end of, they would have been complete hypocrites to have cast a stone,

Can you back that up? Do you have scripture to support your claim that Jesus was referring to all of their sins?

Yes, considering how things were then I would say that sums it up, we dont live in the dark ages anymore thankfully......

The Dark Ages were after God's command to Israel. You're obviously not any good with history. Now, try answering a yes or no question, was God barbaric for commanding that adulterers be executed? Now, remember, God was more enlightened, at that time [and now], than any human could ever hope to be.

 

[red77]

Did I say that? I don't think I did. But I do know that divorce rates would drop.

You're right, divorce rates would plummet because a lot less people would get married

That's cute how you weasel your way out of it like that.

:yawn:

Can you back that up? Do you have scripture to support your claim that Jesus was referring to all of their sins?

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", pretty self explanatory dont you think?

The Dark Ages were after God's command to Israel. You're obviously not any good with history. Now, try answering a yes or no question, was God barbaric for commanding that adulterers be executed? Now, remember, God was more enlightened, at that time [and now], than any human could ever hope to be.

Thank you for the pedanticism, I dont understand the command myself but i recognise it as being for a set place and time which was long ago and which certainly doesnt apply now.....

 

[Silk Queen]

No one should be put to death for being a homosexual.
We don't know enough about what causes this, Are they born that way or is it a choice? Either way they don't deserve death for making a bad choice, if it actually is a choice.
I once believed it a choice but I am questioning that why would anyone choose homosexuality over being Hetrosexual?
I now have a tendecy to believe they were born this way.
Homosexuals that practice celibacy still aren't attracted to the opposite gender as far as I know.
I have someone in the family that is lesbian, it would be devastating to see her have to be put to death for this.
No matter how much we protest the gays will always be with us.

 

[red77]

No one should be put to death for being a homosexual.
We don't know enough about what causes this, Are they born that way or is it a choice? Either way they don't deserve death for making a bad choice, if it actually is a choice.
I once believed it a choice but I am questioning that why would anyone choose homosexuality over being Hetrosexual?
I now have a tendecy to believe they were born this way.
Homosexuals that practice celibacy still aren't attracted to the opposite gender as far as I know.
I have someone in the family that is lesbian, it would be devastating to see her have to be put to death for this.
No matter how much we protest the gays will always be with us.

Agreed - on all counts :up:

 

[Civic]

This thread is teeming with hot opinions. I have gone through a few pages to get a basic understanding of what issues are really being debating. From what I've gathered in my short time here those in favor of capital punishment for homosexuals believe parts of the Mosaic law no longer apply to us while others do. There is no such verse that says this. The dietary laws and other requirements avoided by present Christians are never strictly forbidden. Even parts of the Ten Commandments many Christians still obey outline punishments not one person would call for to be enforced.

Worldly punishment and sacrifice was the answer to sin, but since it was first given to the Jews everyone has been guilty of breaking God's law. That's why Christ came, was punished and sacrificed for our sins. Jesus is salvation. We can and are told to obey secular authority. That does not stop us from personally giving ourselves to Him. We live according to his works and teachings while trying to recruit others to in the process.

And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.

 

[uk_mikey]

This thread is teeming with hot opinions. I have gone through a few pages to get a basic understanding of what issues are really being debating. From what I've gathered in my short time here those in favor of capital punishment for homosexuals believe parts of the Mosaic law no longer apply to us while others do. There is no such verse that says this. The dietary laws and other requirements avoided by present Christians are never strictly forbidden. Even parts of the Ten Commandments many Christians still obey outline punishments not one person would call for to be enforced.

Worldly punishment and sacrifice was the answer to sin, but since it was first given to the Jews everyone has been guilty of breaking God's law. That's why Christ came, was punished and sacrificed for our sins. Jesus is salvation. We can and are told to obey secular authority. That does not stop us from personally giving ourselves to Him. We live according to his works and teachings while trying to recruit others to in the process.

I think the title of this thread is so rediculous, I can't see this thread ever getting going.
:noid:

 

[Lighthouse]

You're right, divorce rates would plummet because a lot less people would get married

You're an idiot. I really cannot think of anything else to say to someone as stupid as you. The idea that people would be so afraid of being killed for committing adultery that they wouldn't even get married is daft beyond compare. With very few exceptions, no one goes into marriage planning to commit adultery. And they would have no reason to fear execution for it.

:yawn:

Yawn all you want, you Godless weasel.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", pretty self explanatory dont you think?

You would think. But you aren't getting it.

Thank you for the pedanticism, I dont understand the command myself but i recognise it as being for a set place and time which was long ago and which certainly doesnt apply now.....

So you admit you don't know what you're talking about?

No one should be put to death for being a homosexual.
We don't know enough about what causes this, Are they born that way or is it a choice? Either way they don't deserve death for making a bad choice, if it actually is a choice.
I once believed it a choice but I am questioning that why would anyone choose homosexuality over being Hetrosexual?
I now have a tendecy to believe they were born this way.
Homosexuals that practice celibacy still aren't attracted to the opposite gender as far as I know.
I have someone in the family that is lesbian, it would be devastating to see her have to be put to death for this.
No matter how much we protest the gays will always be with us.

Acting on it is a choice, just as my acting on my attraction to a female would be a choice. And while being attracted may not be a choice, that doesn't mean they were born that way. Something happened that affected them that affected their sexual development, and they became attracted to the same gender.

Now, I have to ask, why do you disagree with God on homosexual acts being capital crimes?

 

[Lighthouse]

This thread is teeming with hot opinions. I have gone through a few pages to get a basic understanding of what issues are really being debating. From what I've gathered in my short time here those in favor of capital punishment for homosexuals believe parts of the Mosaic law no longer apply to us while others do. There is no such verse that says this. The dietary laws and other requirements avoided by present Christians are never strictly forbidden. Even parts of the Ten Commandments many Christians still obey outline punishments not one person would call for to be enforced.

Worldly punishment and sacrifice was the answer to sin, but since it was first given to the Jews everyone has been guilty of breaking God's law. That's why Christ came, was punished and sacrificed for our sins. Jesus is salvation. We can and are told to obey secular authority. That does not stop us from personally giving ourselves to Him. We live according to his works and teachings while trying to recruit others to in the process.

Forget about sin. What about crime? Are there certain acts regarded as crimes in the Mosaic law, that should still be crimes in all societies? And if so, should those crimes be punishable by law?

 

[red77]

You're an idiot. I really cannot think of anything else to say to someone as stupid as you. The idea that people would be so afraid of being killed for committing adultery that they wouldn't even get married is daft beyond compare. With very few exceptions, no one goes into marriage planning to commit adultery. And they would have no reason to fear execution for it.

LH, you're as naive as they come, what on earth is the incentive for people to marry if there is going to be some state intervention with the very possible result in death if the marriage doesnt work out? Just how many people do you think would risk wedlock with that type of sword hanging over it? You can do your standard "stupid", "idiot" as much as you want, you arent addressing the obvious points, yet again you just show the lack of any salient argument, if you want to have a proper debate LH then I suggest you just drop the pathetic ad homs, answer as to how the marriage rate would somehow rise or even actually stay the same or please get some kind of coherent argument!

Yawn all you want, you Godless weasel.

Get an argument together without the rubbish and maybe I'll stop

You would think. But you aren't getting it.

No LH, it is you who wants to complicate this and have no reputable argument, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", the mob couldnt throw a stone without being hypocritical because we all sin....end of.....

So you admit you don't know what you're talking about?

No, I answered and if you want to live in times gone by then be my guest....

 

[YahuShuan]

Well if the ones who got me were dead, then I would neve have been violated at a young age.

I vote YES.

Forgive them? Like they would ask for forgiveness. Long gone they are, except for the scars on my life and my heart. For now I feel as guilty as they. I allowed it because I had nothing. If the "stumblingblocks" of which they are one of them, were removed already, I would not have sinned, and someone would have given me food to eat, for I was fatherless. So for $20 I became a piece of meat, for food.

So, I live with my guilt on the matter for the rest of my life. I live with putred sickness in me of guilt that never leaves.

Because of all you who have made acceptance for these, and agreed to go against the broken Law of Yah instead of enforcing it. There were too many, they got me, thanks alot.
Those in agreement with the ones who break the Law of Yah set down to PROTECT THE PEOPLE will be guilty as I am.

Instead of warning me, you accepted them, and I went down. How many others out there have been abominated similarly, and now must wrestle with the condemnation of it?

As in the days of Noah, I never stood a chance. Where were YOU when I needed food, shoes, and a roof?

Save the chaff and mutilate the wheat? That is SATAN's plan, not "Gods'".

Not a wonder why I hate evil so much now is it, and that's just a part of what "giving in" has done.

 

[Lighthouse]

LH, you're as naive as they come, what on earth is the incentive for people to marry if there is going to be some state intervention with the very possible result in death if the marriage doesnt work out? Just how many people do you think would risk wedlock with that type of sword hanging over it? You can do your standard "stupid", "idiot" as much as you want, you arent addressing the obvious points, yet again you just show the lack of any salient argument, if you want to have a proper debate LH then I suggest you just drop the pathetic ad homs, answer as to how the marriage rate would somehow rise or even actually stay the same or please get some kind of coherent argument!

People don't expect to commit adultery when they marry. Nor did I ever state that people would be executed simply because their marriage didn't work. Try thinking before you type.

Get an argument together without the rubbish and maybe I'll stop

:blabla:

No LH, it is you who wants to complicate this and have no reputable argument, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", the mob couldnt throw a stone without being hypocritical because we all sin....end of.....

Wrong. If one was cleansed, and had made the proper sacrifices, they were considered to be without sin, at that time. Just as those who are in Christ are perceived to be without sin, now. So the only thing that makes any sense was that they were not without sin in that particular action: bringing the woman to Jesus...

No, I answered and if you want to live in times gone by then be my guest....

You said you don't understand the command. And you still haven't explained why God was not barbaric for commanding it, if it was such a barbaric thing to do, even then...

 

[red77]

People don't expect to commit adultery when they marry. Nor did I ever state that people would be executed simply because their marriage didn't work. Try thinking before you type.

Perhaps you should too, you've still failed to address the pretty obvious reason why the marriage rates would plummet, it may be news to you LH but there's plenty of people out in the world who dont feel inclined to marry as it is without some draconian law being enforced where the possible outcome of such a union could be execution :doh:

:blabla:

:yawn:

Wrong. If one was cleansed, and had made the proper sacrifices, they were considered to be without sin, at that time. Just as those who are in Christ are perceived to be without sin, now. So the only thing that makes any sense was that they were not without sin in that particular action: bringing the woman to Jesus...

Are you without sin LH? Are you saying that you would have been perfectly entitled to throw a stone at that woman in the state you are now? You are arguing semantics and I believe that you know it, it's perfectly clear what the message in Jesus's words were that day and that was noone in that crowd was any better than the woman that they'd have 'legitimatey' or otherwise have had stoned....

You said you don't understand the command. And you still haven't explained why God was not barbaric for commanding it, if it was such a barbaric thing to do, even then...

I have explained it, there were harsh laws for harsh times and I dont pretend to understand a lot of what happened in OT times to be honest, what I do know is that we've progressed and I dont want to return to the same, thousands of years have progressed since then and our own advancement should (hopefully) reflect that....

 

[YahuShuan]

I seriously believe that Yah will not change His mind ABOUT WHAT HE DETERMINED TO BEABOMINATIONS.

LAWS ARE TO "PROTECT THE PEOPLE".

What is spoken of in this post, men lying with men and women lying with women, is an ABOMINATION to YAH. And if you are a member of His House, it is ABOMINATION to you also. What Father says, is IT.

Lev 18:22 ‘And do not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination.

There are MANY such scriptures, and abomination is abomination, then AND NOW.

What...Do you thinkg that Yah would just get used to such filth and let it be gotten away with?

Abomination to Him does the same to anyone with "ears to hear and eyes to see", it is PUTRED TO US. And those who "practice such" have NOT obeyed Yah and thus are NOT of His Family or House...HE HAS TURNED HIS FACE FROM YOU and without repentance you will get death, no matter who likes it or not. Whether here, or above.

We have no vote on the matter, and besides that, I believe Yah is quite righteous in His Judgment on the matter. Be happy I myself also believe that revenge belongs to Him, or many of you would have met Him a LOT SOONER.

"As in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Adam be." Are they even human? A study of Genesis 6 is in order! I think there might just be a chopping block for them. Born with this problem you say?

Methinks we can have an understanding from Genesis. Maybe they are "combo's"...
Gen 6:1 And it came to be, when men began to increase on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
Gen 6:2 that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men, that they were good. And they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
Gen 6:3 And יהוה* said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever in his going astray. He is flesh, and his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of Elohim came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, the men of name.
Gen 6:5 And יהוה* saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And יהוה* was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Gen 6:7 And יהוה* said, “I am going to wipe off man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping creature and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Gen 6:8 But Noaḥ found favour in the eyes of יהוה.
Gen 6:9 This is the genealogy of Noaḥ. Noaḥ was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noaḥ walked with Elohim.

Here is an online version of "The Scriptures" which may help.

Now...continue onward by reading the Book of Enoch that was kept from us, bearing in mind that MAN has been the translator of it, ask for the Truth and Yah will give it...Can you see the truth in it past the mens fingers? There IS truth in it.

And here are most of the rest of the ones "they" kept from us.

Whether or not the non-canonical scriptures are "inspired" should be, always should have been, left between Yah and You to DISCERN by His TEACHER whom HE SENDS.

Suggestion: Try Jasher and then Jubilees next

"How can ya have any pudding if ya don't eat yer meat?"

(I would just like to see you get weened off the milk, but He can't seem to get you to drink it, lol.) Milk=LOVE, Name, Sabbath, Humble, and OBEY the COMMANDS, and love.

IN THAT ORDER, and yes, LOVE is for HIM, and love is for you. HE gets the MOST and gets it FIRST!

Then and only then will you know HOW to love another as yourself, for because you are in your flesh, you are closer to Him than trying to go through another mans flesh. That's why the Messiah had to BE the Son of Yah, because we can't go through flesh, but we can go IN the Name of YahuShua, AS A CHILD, before the Throne, OF OUR FATHER, and YahuShua intercedes FOR US with us.

And just for a side note: If you get on your knees and have nothing to say, don't believe it for a minute! ASK the Set-Apart Spirit! Tell Him you don't know what to say and ask Him if He would speak for you. And...WAIT THERE.

All of a sudden words will be coming out of your mouth, in your own language, going to the Creator, and you will have no doubts, for these words will not be "amiss". I think you would be AMAZED at what HE will DO for YOU, and WITH YOU.

I don't "think" I KNOW.

 

[Lighthouse]

Perhaps you should too, you've still failed to address the pretty obvious reason why the marriage rates would plummet, it may be news to you LH but there's plenty of people out in the world who dont feel inclined to marry as it is without some draconian law being enforced where the possible outcome of such a union could be execution :doh:

You are, without a doubt, the stupidest person I have ever had the displeasure of debating, on TOL. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to believe that they have any fear of execution if they get married.

"Oh, no! I better not get married, because if I commit adultery, I'll end up dead!" The only people whose rationale would even come close to something as idiotic as that are those whose brains lack proper functionality.

Are you without sin LH? Are you saying that you would have been perfectly entitled to throw a stone at that woman in the state you are now? You are arguing semantics and I believe that you know it, it's perfectly clear what the message in Jesus's words were that day and that was noone in that crowd was any better than the woman that they'd have 'legitimatey' or otherwise have had stoned....

Am I without sin, right now? Is that what you're asking? Or are you asking if I would have been without sin back then? I can assure you that if I had been in that crowd that I would not have been without sin. As I already told you, they were sinning by bringing that woman, without the man.

I think the real question is, if today, two people were found committing adultery, would I be free and clear, in the eyes of God, to be one of the executioners, i.e. would I be without sin in the eyes of God... The answer is, "YES!"

I have explained it, there were harsh laws for harsh times and I dont pretend to understand a lot of what happened in OT times to be honest, what I do know is that we've progressed and I dont want to return to the same, thousands of years have progressed since then and our own advancement should (hopefully) reflect that....

Coward!

I'll be waiting for judgment day, to see if you can look at God, and call His commands barbaric.

 

[red77]

You are, without a doubt, the stupidest person I have ever had the displeasure of debating, on TOL. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to believe that they have any fear of execution if they get married.

"Oh, no! I better not get married, because if I commit adultery, I'll end up dead!" The only people whose rationale would even come close to something as idiotic as that are those whose brains lack proper functionality.

And you are unquestionably one of the most naive, do you think that the committment of marriage is something that people take lightly as it is? i doubt anyone who seriously contemplates wedlock is doing so with entertaining the idea of committing infidelity somewhere down the line, there's enough pressure on couples to take such a step along with the inevitable pressures that married life can bring, many people nowadays decide not to get married as it is - and you seriously think that if the state brought in a mandatory death penalty for adultery that there wouldnt be less people who would decide to take the step into marriage?! Why bother when they could have a long term committment to each other anyway as is happening already, can you finally see the logic in how the marriage rate would plummet now or are you just gonna stick with your irrelevant and evasivie ad homs?

Am I without sin, right now? Is that what you're asking? Or are you asking if I would have been without sin back then? I can assure you that if I had been in that crowd that I would not have been without sin. As I already told you, they were sinning by bringing that woman, without the man.

I think the real question is, if today, two people were found committing adultery, would I be free and clear, in the eyes of God, to be one of the executioners, i.e. would I be without sin in the eyes of God... The answer is, "YES!"

It still amazes me the ways that you and others will try to warp, twist and squirm around this crystal clear verse, what do you suppose Jesus was writing on the ground when he spoke those words to the crowd, now i dont know ut I have a feeling that it could well have been a list of sins.....lieing, covetousness, greed, etc etc etc, it's BLATANTLY obvious that Jesus wasnt saying to the crowd that they were automatically sinning because they brought the woman without the man, they were convicted by their conscience

Well, all i can say to you about the rest is that if you could bludgeon strangers to death with stones for their infidelity then I could not, nor would I wish or feel remotely justified in doing so....

Coward!

I'll be waiting for judgment day, to see if you can look at God, and call His commands barbaric.

Whatever LH, I've answered this question, in a present age and living in a civilised society I find it barbaric to think that we should have stoning or the DP for adultery, I make no pretense of finding it difficult for the actual time it was mandated although I can understand that life in general was a lot more brutal and certain things that were tolerated and even the norm back then wouldnt be now, God will know my heart on the subject whatever you may wish to think....