Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

[Granite]

That was referred to (albeit indirectly) in point number 2...Just sayin'. lain:

Just not accurately.

In any event rainee seems beyond all kind of reasoning, anyway. Maybe another 150 years from now more people will finally be talking sense.

 

[TomO]

Just not accurately.

Well....According to the Confederate version of events it is (But I guess that's what the argument is about). :chuckle:

Maybe another 150 years from now more people will finally be talking sense.

I wouldn't count on it. lain:

 

[Town Heretic]

And to TOWN,
I apologize more deeply than I can show for bringing anything personal into our conversation, I totally disapprove of it and wish I could take it all back.

Water under the bridge, though in general an apology with a qualifier...

I am ashamed I did it because you called me racist.

No, I never did. I nudged you hard on points you made that seemed pretty obviously steeped in racist thinking and I told you when and why that was. It's why I asked a few hard questions on point that I hope you at least consider privately, even if you don't address them here.

We all have blind spots on something. When I was a kid interracial couples shocked me. Now I find that shock amusing and sad. We can grow past the stupidity embedded in some traditions if we want to.

Which this is no justification.

Agreed and I'm happy to hear it from you.

Please forgive me. I am sorry.

Don't trouble yourself. I keep conversations in the moment absent an inordinately ponderous and inarguable habit, which wouldn't fairly describe you on the point. So it's really not a problem and I'm not offended, though I do appreciate the gesture.

 

[Town Heretic]

Outlawing a flag in response to a mass shooting shows how insane liberals are.

Calling the removal of a foreign flag from over a state capital "outlawing" shows how irresponsible some on the right can be with rhetoric.

What meaningful change are you hoping it will achieve?

It's symbolic, like a flag.

Now if the murderer were to be executed tomorrow with rocks, that might scare the hell out of someone else would could otherwise follow a similar path.

It might, but I don't think reason has much to do with crazy or evil.

 

[Stripe]

Calling the removal of a foreign flag from over a state capital "outlawing" shows how irresponsible some on the right can be with rhetoric.It's symbolic, like a flag.It might, but I don't think reason has much to do with crazy or evil.

Nine people are murdered. Lawyer wants to argue about a flag and calls justice evil.

 

[Granite]

Ya know, if this wretched flag were just a symbol of "heritage," southerners would soberly and of their own accord acknowledge it's been misappropriated and would have taken the initiative to rid themselves of it a while ago.

That they haven't, and just dug their heels in for decades in defiance of decency and common sense, shows just how depraved its cause really is.

Roof is a symptom of a greater problem, but he is without a doubt the spawn of a heartsick culture of hate.

 

[Stripe]

Nine people murdered, liberal only wants to talk about a flag.

 

[Town Heretic]

Nine people are murdered.

He's been caught. He'll be tried. I've noted he's crazy or evil. Maybe both. :idunno: What else is there to say about that? It's a tragedy.

Lawyer wants to argue about a flag

Said the guy who only just wrote about what, again? Oh, yeah:

Outlawing a flag in response to a mass shooting shows how insane liberals are.

In case your short term memory is still fuzzy for you, that was you arguing about a flag, right before you became a flaming hypocrite.

Anyway, I was pointing out what that flag represents and why it doesn't belong over a state capital to people with distorted understanding of history or the moment.

and calls justice evil.

I never did. Though I have tried reasoning with you when you get your bumper sticker shtick going, so I can get a thing wrong.

 

[Stripe]

He's been caught. He'll be tried. I've noted he's crazy or evil. Maybe both. :idunno: What else is there to say about that? It's a tragedy.

The tragedy is he will spend years on taxpayer-funded food and accommodation until there is any hope of seeing justice done.

Anyway, I was pointing out what that flag represents and why it doesn't belong over a state capital to people with distorted understanding of history or the moment.

Justice remains perverted and all you care about is a flag.

 

[Town Heretic]

The tragedy is he will spend years on taxpayer-funded food and accommodation until there is any hope of seeing justice done.

Says Stripe, the personal, long distance arbiter of justice... No, he may be crazy, he may be evil. Justice will have to wait that determination.

Justice remains perverted

It doesn't, but your unreasoning ire remains consistent.

and all you care about is a flag

Said the guy who led his response with

Outlawing a flag in response to a mass shooting shows how insane liberals are. What meaningful change are you hoping it will achieve?

before flaming out in a blindingly hypocritical blaze.

I think all you care about is being angry and loud. You don't appear to care about being accurate or consistent. Well, congrats. If chrys posts an award for that you're in the running.

 

[IMJerusha]

Yes, they are. And some people are Rotarians while still others are Masons. And all are Americans. To be an American isn't to give up any other identity, only to understand that whatever else we may be by virtue of genetics or heritage, we are first and foremost one people, out of those many differences.

That was precisely my point. Not every red haired, blue eyed person has Scottish heritage. Not every black haired, blue eyed person is black Irish. Not every black skinned American has African heritage. For some reason, however, we now have to refer to every black skinned American as African American. Why? I understand identifying with our heritage but first establish you have that heritage. My good friend whose entire ancestral family were slaves in Hanover, Virginia told me she thought it was the most ridiculous thing. She simply wanted to be known as an American

Horsefeathers. Does someone who wears green and celebrates St. Patrick's Day give up full equality because he's proud his last name is O'Malley?

Not horsefeathers at all. If one is interested in full equality, one doesn't demand special recognition.

Complete nonsense. Southerners consider themselves "Southerners" not Confederates.

Why?...because you say so?

Unless you're speaking of reenactors, which would be misleading in another way. I've spent most of my life in the heart of Dixie and I've literally never heard anyone refer to himself as a Confederate. Never read of it.

They don't go around declaring what simply is, Town and if you are a son of the South, you know that.

This is what comes of a Yankee telling a Southerner about his heritage.

And you just proved my point with this statement. Only Confederates consider northerners Yankees. You're also incorrect as I am not a Yankee. My family wasn't even living in this country at the time of the Civil War. My husband's family is a whole different story.

Modern revisionist nonsense. The right to what, again? First keep blacks as property and later to keep them second class citizens. That's the tradition of that flag. It never instilled a better value and the best the South had and has to offer existed without it.

I don't think Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were modern revisionist in the sense of your dismissal of them and the Constitution. You're ignoring the fact that slaves were present in the Northern states. You're ignoring the fact that black Americans fought for the South and you're ignoring the fact that free blacks had their own slaves, both black and white, not just indentured peoples.

 

[IMJerusha]

So first you can't show me, which effectively ends the point, but you want to try to extend the point anyway by claiming something equally wrong headed. :sigh:

Twist what I post then twist my response to your twist and call the point made. You're not doing anything to help the common perception of those in your profession, my own family included. Lincoln trampled all over states rights as documented in the 10th amendment to the Constitution.

 

[IMJerusha]

What's with the "Look, look, over here!' response? Have I defended Sherman? That man is dispised throughout the South. His tactics in Georgia should have seen him prosecuted for war crimes.

Doesn't excuse Forrest, of course. But if you want to discuss various generals and the conduct of their campaigns during the war start a thread and I'll happily contribute.

I see you're off the legality issue then. And still working on how to hold that Lincoln opinion you shared in light of his efforts in securing the 13th Amendment then.

It's okay. I'm a patient man. History is for the patient.

History is also for the accurate, Town. It's a well documented fact that Forrest commanded free black men as well as black slaves in the defense of the Confederacy/states rights and had great respect for both. My point in bringing up Sherman is that he is hailed as a hero of the North when he was a murdering monster. If Forrest needs to be dug up and decried as evil, surely Sherman should be also, although it was Sherman who found Forrest innocent of impropriety at the Battle of Fort Pillow. Memphis City Council members might do well to remember that it was Forrest who tried to deliver their town from Union soldiers and free many Southerners from Irving Block Prison. I've responded to your inaccuracy regarding the 10th amendment to the Constitution which you want to call illegal.

 

[IMJerusha]

The more you know.

Then you'd better read up, Brother because not only did Forrest do his best to rescue Southern prisoners held in Memphis, he did it with a lot of free black men as well as slaves under his command. Some Southern families owe the lives of their ancestors to the man and his command.

 

[IMJerusha]

Calling the removal of a foreign flag from over a state capital "outlawing" shows how irresponsible some on the right can be with rhetoric.

Oh wait, I have no doubt the best is yet to come.

It's symbolic, like a flag.

Yes, well, I don't see you calling for the removal of the American flag from atop state capital buildings seeing as how it can be construed as the symbol of aggression against and genocide of the American Indian. San Francisco flies the flag of the original 13 colonies which all approved of slavery. That should come down too! Let's just pull all the flags down, considering what they could be symbolic of.

 

[Town Heretic]

Yes, well, I don't see you calling for the removal of the American flag from atop state capital buildings

And if you've been paying attention you've seen me answer as to why that is and the important ways it differs from that foreign, defeated flag.

seeing as how it can be construed as the symbol of aggression against and genocide of the American Indian.

No, there was no genocidal plan to exterminate the Native American, there was only a horrific indifference to their plight coupled with enormous greed and acts of perfidy.

San Francisco flies the flag of the original 13 colonies which all approved of slavery.

It's still the national flag and I've answered on that prior and more than once.

That should come down too! Let's just pull all the flags down, considering what they could be symbolic of.

Doesn't work that way. Shouldn't. Our flag is a symbol of our nation. It's a nation with a great principle in play, flawed as we might be from time to time, established to forge among men a free people and a Republic of laws where all men find equality. That concept was too advanced even for the men who framed it.

I think that says something grand about the experiment in progress.

 

[Town Heretic]

Then you'd better read up, Brother because not only did Forrest do his best to rescue Southern prisoners held in Memphis, he did it with a lot of free black men as well as slaves under his command. Some Southern families owe the lives of their ancestors to the man and his command.

The massacre was of unarmed and surrendering Union troops. It's noted among the most horrific offenses of the war.

"The river was dyed with the blood of the slaughtered for two hundred yards. The approximate loss was upward of five hundred killed, but few of the officers escaping. My loss was about twenty killed. It is hoped that these facts will demonstrate to the Northern people that negro soldiers cannot cope with Southerners." N.B. Forrest

Ultimately, again, it's up to the good folks in Memphis to decide if he's the stamp they want on their city. But then, they already have, haven't they?

History is also for the accurate, Town. It's a well documented fact that Forrest commanded free black men as well as black slaves in the defense of the Confederacy/states rights and had great respect for both. My point in bringing up Sherman is that he is hailed as a hero of the North when he was a murdering monster.

Whether or not Yankees celebrate Mr. Sherman is of no particular moment to me. He remains a war criminal for his acts against a civilian population. He'd have been kinder to have put many of them to the sword.

If Forrest needs to be dug up and decried as evil, surely Sherman should be also, although it was Sherman who found Forrest innocent of impropriety at the Battle of Fort Pillow.

Sherman fought on the right side of history. Having not been convicted of any charge there's no particular impetus, I suppose, to attempt to try him now.

I've responded to your inaccuracy regarding the 10th amendment to the Constitution which you want to call illegal.

You've done nothing of the sort, since I never held the position. Well that explains your reading of history, I suppose. You see what you want to see.

 

[Town Heretic]

...If one is interested in full equality, one doesn't demand special recognition.

Says who? If you're being treated equally before the law and you want to identify as a Jets' fan then go to. Or a Knight of Columbus, or a Republican or an Irishman.

Why?...because you say so?

Because unlike you I've spent a lifetime in the Deep South and I'm actually a Southerner, with long and lasting roots familial here and I've never heard the like. We are Southerners, my Yankee friend, not Confederates. Else, why not, it was good enough for you above.

They don't go around declaring what simply is, Town and if you are a son of the South, you know that.

WE don't go around declaring it because it isn't our identity, honor that war or not. No one here declares "The Confederacy Will Rise Again!" and you know why? Because we're not dad-blasted Confederates. We don't identify that way. Southern covers a great deal more than that C word ever will or ever did.

And you just proved my point with this statement. Only Confederates consider northerners Yankees.

No, just because we use the term and eat grits it doesn't follow that we're Confederates, unless you're desperate to make a case for a thing you can't produce and won't, which is the daft notion of most Southerners agreeing with you on the Confederate nonsense.

You're also incorrect as I am not a Yankee. My family wasn't even living in this country at the time of the Civil War. My husband's family is a whole different story.

Where were you born and where have you spent your life? It has nothing to do with how long your family has lived there. That's why no Southerner will ever stop and say, "Before I call y'all Yankees I should ask, how many generations of you are there in that northern state?"

The Civil War only factors with you in your sad attempt to insist on a thing that my wife, a life long Alabamian snorted to hear.

Not even her family, who feel very differently about the flag, would agree with your notion. It's simply and deeply mistaken.

I don't think Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were modern revisionist in the sense of your dismissal of them and the Constitution.

Like you, I have no idea what you're talking about there.

You're ignoring the fact that slaves were present in the Northern states.

No, I'm not. Not even once. Though by the time of the war slavery was mostly a border state problem for the Union.

You're ignoring the fact that black Americans fought for the South and you're ignoring the fact that free blacks had their own slaves, both black and white, not just indentured peoples.

I'm not ignoring it, it's just of no moment. How does it alter a thing I've said about the institution, the Confederacy or its flag?

 

[drbrumley]

And while you're on that you should consider another blast from that recent past/post: Lincoln didn't need to end slavery by amendment. But he put his full weight into doing that. Because he always wanted it ended, as the South knew. When he had the ability he used it.

Please tell me your not serious.

 

[Stripe]

Says Stripe, the personal, long distance arbiter of justice...

Evolutionists have used before the fact of where I am as if it had some relevance to the truth of what I say. It is as irrational now as it was then.

He may be crazy, he may be evil. Justice will have to wait that determination.

He is a murderer. Justice demands that he be executed. The longer that waits, the longer justice is denied.

Said the guy who led his response with before flaming out in a blindingly hypocritical blaze.I think all you care about is being angry and loud. You don't appear to care about being accurate or consistent. Well, congrats. If chrys posts an award for that you're in the running.

Wake us up when you have something rational to contribute. :up: