SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT

[JudgeRightly]

That is crazy talk.

That's what the Bible says. Why do you reject it?

You say Paul did destroy the church!

That's what the Bible says. Why do you reject it?

You admit that you preach Paul says we don't have to do anything.

That's what Paul, in the Bible, says. Why do you reject it?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

That is NOWHERE ANYWHERE in the Bible.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Show the scripture that SAYS PAUL DESTROYED THE CHURCH.

Show the scripture that SAYS PAUL PREACHES ANOTHER GOSPEL.

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:7-9&version=NKJV

Show the scripture where Paul says you don't have to repent of your sins, and I'll show you scriptures where it is EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS.

There are no scriptures where Paul says to repent of one's sins.

There ARE however, verses where Paul says to "repent and turn toward God," which is NOT talking about individual sins, but to turn away from a life of sin. In other words, the verses that you will claim to say that they teach repenting of sin are in fact talking about turning away from sinning in general NOT individual sins, and turning towards God to live for Him, instead of living for one's flesh.

 

[Right Divider]

Show the scripture that SAYS PAUL DESTROYED THE CHURCH.

So many times it seems like you don't have a Bible, just some pet verses scratched on napkin.

Gal 1:13 KJV For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:​

Here is the word translated "wasted"

G4199
πορθέω
portheō
por-theh'-o
Prolonged version of πέρθω porthō (to sack); to ravage (figuratively): - destroy, waste.
Total KJV occurrences: 3​

Other occurrences:

Act 9:21 KJV But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

Gal 1:23 KJV But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.​

 

[Right Divider]

PAUL SAYS HE TAUGHT REPENT AND PROVE YOUR REPENTANCE.

So what? He never says that's how eternal life is EARNED. You CANNOT EARN eternal life, no matter how righteous you think that YOU are.

 

[Bright Raven]

Faith about what?

We have to have faith in a man that came along and said forgiveness is through him and that you have to go through him to get to the Father.

Nowhere anywhere does Jesus say you don't have to obey him and just believe.

We have to believe that we have to obey Jesus to get to God the Father.

You had better get a handle on your theology. Your belief needs to be in Jesus Christ not obedience. If you do not have Jesus, you have nothing.

 

[God's Truth]

That's what the Bible says. Why do you reject it


That's what the Bible says. Why do you reject it?


That's what Paul, in the Bible, says. Why do you reject it?


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Not of the works of the law---like CIRCUMCISION.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Read now Ephesians Scripture 11 Paul says, “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision”…

Paul immediately starts speaking of the works of the Jews---circumcision.

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:7-9&version=NKJV

Preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised was given to Paul because the Jews didn't trust him. DUH

There are no scriptures where Paul says to repent of one's sins.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

There ARE however, verses where Paul says to "repent and turn toward God," which is NOT talking about individual sins, but to turn away from a life of sin. In other words, the verses that you will claim to say that they teach repenting of sin are in fact talking about turning away from sinning in general NOT individual sins, and turning towards God to live for Him, instead of living for one's flesh.

You aren't speaking the truth! These scriptures are of Paul saying to prove REPENTANCE BY YOUR DEEDS, and in another scripture he says REPENT OF IMPURITY, and SEXUAL SINS.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

 

[God's Truth]

Nowhere does that say Paul destroyed the church. He was trying to destroy it. YOU SAY it proudly that he did destroy the church! I can hardly believe you say something so wrong and bad.

 

[God's Truth]

You had better get a handle on your theology. Your belief needs to be in Jesus Christ not obedience. If you do not have Jesus, you have nothing.

If you are not obedient to Jesus, then you are not in him and he is not in you.

 

[God's Truth]

He was called the chief of sinners because he DID destroy the church.



The Bible says he DID destroy the church... the church of Israel.

Even the gates of hell couldn't overcome the church, but you think Paul destroyed it?

 

[God's Truth]

So what? He never says that's how eternal life is EARNED. You CANNOT EARN eternal life, no matter how righteous you think that YOU are.

You threw in the earning part. You make up things to make your false beliefs sound right. Who is the liar? You say I say things I don't say.

Jesus tells us how to get saved. He tells us how to be the kind of heart he lives in.

 

[Bright Raven]

If you are not obedient to Jesus, then you are not in him and he is not in you.

You must have Christ before you can become obedient to Him. You must surrender all that you are to Him

 

[God's Truth]

So many times it seems like you don't have a Bible, just some pet verses scratched on napkin.

Gal 1:13 KJV For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:​

Here is the word translated "wasted"

G4199
πορθέω
portheō
por-theh'-o
Prolonged version of πέρθω porthō (to sack); to ravage (figuratively): - destroy, waste.
Total KJV occurrences: 3​

Other occurrences:

Act 9:21 KJV But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

Gal 1:23 KJV But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.​

This is where you need to check other translations.

If the church was destroyed, what were people still doing in the CHURCH?

Here Paul speaks of the CHURCHES in JUDEA.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

See that, the SAME gospel that would SAVE THE GENTILES.


Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

 

[God's Truth]

You must have Christ before you can become obedient to Him. You must surrender all that you are to Him

That is not God's words. God says He saves those who obey Him.

 

[Bright Raven]

That is not God's words. God says He saves those who obey Him.

Yes it is


​​​​​​ [h=1]Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)[/h]
⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[h=1]Romans 10:9-13 King James Version (KJV)[/h]
⁹ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

¹⁰ For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

¹¹ For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

¹² For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

¹³ For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


​​​​​​ [h=1]John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)[/h]
¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes it is

No such thing as God coming to earth as a man, teaching the Way, and then later sending Paul with a different gospel called don't do what Jesus said when he walked the earth as a man.

You know what should give you a big hint that you are in falseness? I tell you, it is when you preach that you don't have to obey, or that obeying is actually to not obey.

I have just showed you the two red flags that you should know about.

​​​​​​ [h=1]Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)[/h]
⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.-

The Jews used to be able to boast that they cleaned and purified themselves.

Those are the works of the old law that do not save anymore.

The people were being taught now that they don't have to do special baths and bring animals to sacrifice, because Jesus does the cleaning now.

[h=1]Romans 10:9-13 King James Version (KJV)[/h]
⁹ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You will be saved if you call Jesus 'Lord', and you had better be obeying the one you call the Lord.

That is what Jesus says.

I gave you those scriptures many times.

See it is not for you to dismiss what Jesus taught when Paul came along.; the right and logical thing is that you have to show that Paul is not acting out of disobedience to what Christ taught.

You completely have to call Paul a teacher of another gospel that opposes what Jesus taught when he walked the earth. That should send shivers up your spine to even contemplate such a thing.

¹⁰ For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You have to believe that Jesus' blood cleans you of the sins you repent of doing.

Another red flag is that you no longer get it what you have to believe because remember, you dismissed Jesus' teachings from earlier when he said repent or perish.

So since you no longer have Jesus' teachings as a guide, you say we just have to believe that we have to believe.

Now you are in a darker place further from the truth.

¹¹ For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

¹² For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

¹³ For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus taught the Jews first and then said all can come to him and obey to be saved. Paul explains that too when he says Jews first then Gentiles. Paul is explaining that Jew and Gentile can come to be saved it makes no difference. Jesus makes the two different men one. Jesus took away the dividing wall, the purification works of the law and does the cleaning himself.

​​​​​​ [h=1]John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)[/h]
¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believe what? You can't answer that except to say believe that you have to believe, because remember, you took away all of Jesus' teachings.

 

[Bright Raven]

No such thing as God coming to earth as a man, teaching the Way, and then later sending Paul with a different gospel called don't do what Jesus said when he walked the earth as a man.

You know what should give you a big hint that you are in falseness? I tell you, it is when you preach that you don't have to obey, or that obeying is actually to not obey.

I have just showed you the two red flags that you should know about.


The Jews used to be able to boast that they cleaned and purified themselves.

Those are the works of the old law that do not save anymore.

The people were being taught now that they don't have to do special baths and bring animals to sacrifice, because Jesus does the cleaning now.



You will be saved if you call Jesus 'Lord', and you had better be obeying the one you call the Lord.

That is what Jesus says.

I gave you those scriptures many times.

See it is not for you to dismiss what Jesus taught when Paul came along.; the right and logical thing is that you have to show that Paul is not acting out of disobedience to what Christ taught.

You completely have to call Paul a teacher of another gospel that opposes what Jesus taught when he walked the earth. That should send shivers up your spine to even contemplate such a thing.



You have to believe that Jesus' blood cleans you of the sins you repent of doing.

Another red flag is that you no longer get it what you have to believe because remember, you dismissed Jesus' teachings from earlier when he said repent or perish.

So since you no longer have Jesus' teachings as a guide, you say we just have to believe that we have to believe.

Now you are in a darker place further from the truth.




Jesus taught the Jews first and then said all can come to him and obey to be saved. Paul explains that too when he says Jews first then Gentiles. Paul is explaining that Jew and Gentile can come to be saved it makes no difference. Jesus makes the two different men one. Jesus took away the dividing wall, the purification works of the law and does the cleaning himself.



Believe what? You can't answer that except to say believe that you have to believe, because remember, you took away all of Jesus' teachings.

I'm going to show you a big red flag!!!!
You believe in works salvation. You no longer believe in the free gift of Christ's purchase at the cross How does it feel to be unsaved. :bang:

 

[God's Truth]

I'm going to show you a big red flag!!!!
You believe in works salvation. You no longer believe in the free gift of Christ's purchase at the cross How does it feel to be unsaved. :bang:

You are falsely calling it a works salvation, as if it is shameful to obey God! RED FLAG.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That's what the Bible says. Why do you reject it


That's what the Bible says. Why do you reject it?


That's what Paul, in the Bible, says. Why do you reject it?


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Striking out what I say won't make it go away, GT.

The BIBLE SAYS that we are to place our trust in CHRIST'S faith, not our own.
The BIBLE SAYS that Paul destroyed the church.
The BIBLE SAYS that Paul claims we do not have to do anything to earn our salvation. We need simply to place our trust in the faithfulness of Christ.

Not of the works of the law---like CIRCUMCISION.

Circumcision came before the law, and is therefore a synecdoche of it.

Have you never read through Genesis?

Read now Ephesians Scripture 11 Paul says, “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision”…

And?

He's making a distinction between two groups where you say there is none.

Paul immediately starts speaking of the works of the Jews---circumcision.

Right, because "circumcison" is a synechdoche for the law.

Preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised was given to Paul because the Jews didn't trust him. DUH

Well, no, that was only part of it.

Go read what God said to Paul in Acts 9:15. That's the reason Paul went to the uncircumcised.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Which is exactly what I said.

There ARE however, verses where Paul says to "repent and turn toward God," which is NOT talking about individual sins, but to turn away from a life of sin. In other words, the verses that you will claim to say that they teach repenting of sin are in fact talking about turning away from sinning in general NOT individual sins, and turning towards God to live for Him, instead of living for one's flesh.

You aren't speaking the truth!

Saying it doesn't make it so.

These scriptures are of Paul saying to prove REPENTANCE BY YOUR DEEDS, and in another scripture he says REPENT OF IMPURITY, and SEXUAL SINS.

Again, repenting from a life of sin fits exactly what I said, and has NOTHING to do with one's salvation, except that it comes AFTER one is saved.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

:yawn:

You done cherry-picking yet? Especially after I've explained the verses to you?

Nowhere does that say Paul destroyed the church.

Are you blind or something?

What part of "and was destroying it" do you not understand?

He was trying to destroy it.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Did you notice that in many versions of the Bible, the words "trying to" are italicized?

Do you know what that means?

It means that those words are not in the manuscripts, and were added by the translators.

It means that their bias of the text has crept into the modern text.

The Greek says that Paul was destroying the church, and RD provided other verses where Paul himself claimed to have destroyed it, past tense. Paul overseeing Stephen being martyred was part of that destruction of the church.

I'm going to believe what the Bible says, which is that Paul destroyed the church if Israel, but that God started a NEW church with Paul being the first convert.

YOU SAY it proudly

Liar.

that he did destroy the church!

Because the Bible says so. Why do you reject what the Bible says, GT?

I can hardly believe you say something so wrong and bad.

That's because you're the one who's on the wrong side of the Bible.

Tell us, GT, why do you reject plain scripture in favor of your own beliefs?

Even the gates of hell couldn't overcome the church,

No, that's not what Jesus said.

He said that the gates of Hell could not stand AGAINST it.

He said nothing about it being destroyed from within.

but you think Paul destroyed it?

That's what the Bible says, repeatedly.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm going to show you a big red flag!!!!
You believe in works salvation. You no longer believe in the free gift of Christ's purchase at the cross How does it feel to be unsaved. :bang:

I've invited her to get saved many times, but she refuses. She is blinded by her own perceived self-righteousness.

 

[Bright Raven]

You are falsely calling it a works salvation, as if it is shameful to obey God! RED FLAG.

No I'm not. If you believe in anything besides the finished work of JESUS Christ on the cross for your salvation, you believe in works salvation. Your obedience is nothing but filthy rags. The cross is not about what you can do but about what JESUS has already done.

 

[Right Divider]

This is where you need to check other translations.

And this coming from someone that uses the absolute piece of garbage called the NIV?

I ALSO showed you the GREEK word from which that translation was translated. Perhaps you think that the GREEK text is also incorrect.

If the church was destroyed, what were people still doing in the CHURCH?

Destroyed does NOT mean taken out of existence. God also destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Gen 13:10 KJV And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.

​

Did they completely disappear from the face of the earth? NO, they did not... and yet they were DESTROYED.

2Pe 2:6 KJV And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

​

Here Paul speaks of the CHURCHES in JUDEA.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

See that, the SAME gospel that would SAVE THE GENTILES.

There are many gospels. The gospel of the grace of God is freely given to all, except those like you that will not accept it due to your pride.

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

If the church, as some (and I believe you) define it, is all believers .... why is Christ talking about BUILDING His church? He is clearly talking about a FUTURE event.