Reformed Theology: Somewhere Between..

[Crucible]

You cannot hold to part of the T.UL.I.P. doctrines. They're very much an all or nothing package deal as is the rest of the Reformed doctrinal system.

Gee, almost like when Christ says 'If you are not with me, you are against me'

or

Salvation and Damnation

Reformed doctrine is 'all or nothing' because that is what Christianity is. You can't have one foot in, one foot out, having control here and letting God have it there thinking you are 'working out' yourself and the world around you with the sovereign God.

God is one of order, not chaos, and your ideology is nothing but chaos. This world is no different then the universe it is in.

 

[Lon]

Just was served for sin.

There is a duel reason for his coming. He is the Cornerstone for those who trust Him, but a stone of stumbling for all who reject Him. Agree? Or no?

His death is not salvation. Receiving his life is salvation. And it is a gift that people reject.

I'd take it you agree, then? Is this correct?

See, I told you so.


1 Corinthians 1

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

He actually agreed with you, Nick. He said Grace was only connected to Salvation, and that ARM was talking about God's providence rather. Or am I missing something? Are you simply agreeing with AMR here? I'm a bit confused on the short post.

I realize there is some attempt to save ARM from Calvinist clutches going on here. I'm not trying to convert anybody (just asking clarifying questions that may or may not serve the thread, but help me understand what is being said more clearly, and in that, perhaps ARM as well). Scripture is our best place for that and so I generally just encourage one's devotions and time seeking out a matter in scripture as any good Berean. It does, however, tip my Calvinist hand toward my view of God's sovereignty over man Proverbs 16:9 Ephesians 2:10 Romans 8:28-30

 

[musterion]

His death is not salvation. Receiving his life is salvation. And it is a gift that people reject.

Or, after accepting a flesh-pleasing counterfeit and are then offered the true Gift, they reject the True as false.

 

[Nick M]

You can't have one foot in, one foot out, having control here and letting God have it there thinking you are 'working out' you and the world around you with the sovereign God.

Romans 6

18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 

[Nick M]

There is a duel reason for his coming.

No shots will be wasted on this red herring.

 

[musterion]

Btw, Hilston addresses this concern. We are not talking about fatalism, but rather that God determines after His own counsel as the only Independent. We aren't as godlike as we think we are, thus the accusation against Calvinism is often from a predisposition to think we are in a place of independence (and I too was/am there). I have a knowledge of good and evil, but it is a result of the Fall that I possess it. That means, I have something that God ordained, but prescribed rather than decreed in remedy. This is an infralapsarian sublapsarian supralapsarian discussion, however (the article does a fairly good job of explanation though 'allow' is not exactly right). It is important to understand when you are building a strawman against Calvinism, rather than actually understanding it (a great thread for address perception vs reality regarding Calvinism and Hilston isn't a Calvinist). We aren't always as hard to get or understand, nor always against the rest of Christendom in our theology as we are often portrayed.

Enough with your vain philosophical blah blah. I know you're not willing to do this - you never have been - but I ask you to answer these briefly, directly and honestly:

1. Was the eternal destiny of all - whether with Christ or separated from Him - effectively predetermined by the sovereign will and decree of God in eternity past?

2. Do those for whom the blood of Christ was allegedly not shed (those who did not receive your allegedly Limited atonement) have any hope of salvation? ANY AT ALL?

3. Someone hears the Gospel of grace and understands it, but does not believe it and dies in rejection of it. What does the Bible say will happen to him/her?

4. Why will that happen to them?

 

[musterion]

No shots will be wasted on this red herring.

Yep, he's got a barrel full of 'em.

 

[Jonahdog]

All mankind being totally depraved is already hell and you want to tell God you deserve better treatment? God called and none answered cause Adam made all of us deaf.

Is your god omniscient?

 

[Crucible]

Romans 6

18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:15-18
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.


There's TULIP written all over that, hombre.
All the biblical authors were Calvinists

 

[TulipBee]

Is your god omniscient?

Theres only one God and he rules all

 

[Lon]

No shots will be wasted on this red herring.

Understood. It wasn't intentioned as a herring, however, red or otherwise.

Yep, he's got a barrel full of 'em.

Speaking of....

Enough with your vain philosophical blah blah. I know you're not willing to do this - you never have been - but I ask you to answer these briefly, directly and honestly:

This 'may' be your genuine perception, but no. I don't really care what you think. I really don't, it is your emoting and overt asserting, nothing to do with me. "Vain philosophy" nor "blah blah" mean a whit to me. You don't like Calvinism. That much is understood. Talk me biblically and logically out of it, if that's the case. If you can do it, I will change it. You attack a strawman most often. Is no Calvinist your brother? Ever? Again, treat me as a brother and talk me out of it then!

1. Was the eternal destiny of all - whether with Christ or separated from Him - effectively predetermined by the sovereign will and decree of God in eternity past?

Yes, and your choices are part of that decretive and prescriptive will of God, else you and I'd not be here. Fact.

2. Do those for whom the blood of Christ was allegedly not shed (those who did not receive your allegedly Limited atonement) have any hope of salvation? ANY AT ALL?

No, but not for the reason you are thinking. They don't "hope" for salvation or would be saved. Did it answer your question? Yes. Your intention? Probably not, but you are being the sloppy one here, playing games that appear a bit beyond your ability honestly. Perhaps you have better intention. Not seeing it.

3. Someone hears the Gospel of grace and understands it, but does not believe it and dies in rejection of it. What does the Bible say will happen to him/her?

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already[predetermined], because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

4. Why will that happen to them?

Joh 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

If none of this addresses your questions, it is because you haven't been clear. Exasperated? Seems to be, but emphatic does not clarity make in this case. You seem too emotionally attached to me. The gospel stands on its own without this emotional baggage. I have no idea usually why this happens in attacks against Calvinism, but exasperation is no way to do theology. If you can 'show' it as evil doctrine, do so. I'll counter rather with scriptures. I don't care about emoting accusations.

 

[musterion]

1. Was the eternal destiny of all - whether with Christ or separated from Him - effectively predetermined by the sovereign will and decree of God in eternity past?

Yes.

2. Do those for whom the blood of Christ was allegedly not shed (those who did not receive your allegedly Limited atonement) have any CHANCE OR POSSIBILITY of salvation? ANY AT ALL?

No.

3. Someone hears the Gospel of grace and understands it, but does not believe it and dies in rejection of it. What does the Bible say will happen to him/her?

Joh 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already [predetermined], because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Yeah, because he CAN'T believe because the god of Calvinism didn't ENABLE him to believe, yet holds him eternally damnable for not doing what your god never made it possible for him to do.

4. Why will that happen to them?

Joh 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Yeah, because he CAN'T believe because the god of Calvinism didn't ENABLE him to believe, yet holds him eternally damnable for not doing what your god never made it possible for him to do.

Anyway, thanks for the honest answers, they're better than any I get from mainstream Calvinists like AMR and Doogielos and are on par with the honesty of B57 (that's actually a compliment). However, your answers prove the point that some of us have been making: the god of Calvinism is a liar and his gospel is a fraud that does not save the elect (they're already safe) and cannot save the reprobates (no blood for them). So the gospel according to Calvinism is lie all the way around that has no need for the Cross. It's a whole other gnostic, fatalistic religion wherein one does not actually need faith to be favored by God...only election.

Yeah, you don't care what I think. I knew that. But the above is not just what I "think." It's not just my opinion. It's a demonstrable fact that you have just confirmed. Calvinism is idolatry.

 

[Nick M]

There's TULIP written all over that, hombre.

Demonstrate it.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Is your god omniscient?

What possible reason do you have for being on a religious forum?
Just to cause trouble? Or, just to show off your moronic IQ? by the
way, your IQ seems to match your shoe size. Congratulations.

Your certificate of graduation is pending. This is because, we
have to wait and see if your IQ lowers before the end of the day?
Which is almost certain to occur. Thank you for your patience.

 

[Jonahdog]

Theres only one God and he rules all

You did not answer my question. Is your god all-knowing? Is he outside of time therefore able to see the future before it happens?

 

[Jonahdog]

What possible reason do you have for being on a religious forum?
Just to cause trouble? Or, just to show off your moronic IQ? by the
way, your IQ seems to match your shoe size. Congratulations.

Your certificate of graduation is pending. This is because, we
have to wait and see if your IQ lowers before the end of the day?
Which is almost certain to occur. Thank you for your patience.

So only people who agree with your particular theology should be on here? That would be no fun at all.

I am simply trying to understand this particular bit of Christian theology. Which seems to be that your god knew from all eternity which humans would be with him in Paradise and which would be damned forever. Please explain how it is that your god who created man in his own image, would set up the world that way. The "just because he can" answer does not suffice.

On the other hand, if he did not know from day one, then he is not all-knowing.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

So only people who agree with your particular theology should be on here? That would be no fun at all.

You should be providing the entertainment clown?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Another word for an Atheist: A fool.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Only a fool looks around planet earth and the sky above and says, "There
is no creator."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

How's it feel being in a minority?