Reformed Theology: Somewhere Between..

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Limited Atonement was and still is one i wrestle with.

In what sense?

AMR

 

[ARMcCarley]

Well, I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught that Christ died for all. And it made sense to me because i was only introduced to the verses that appeared to support that theology. But now that Christ is in me, I have a desire to know him and i am challenged with scripture like Romans 9. And to tell the truth my heart aches for the non-elect. not sure if that's right but that;s my feeling.


ARM

 

[Lon]

Reformed theology is just another idol. People who have an interest in religion move from one denomination to another and thus change their theology. The move from one theology to another does have an effect, but it is an emotional effect that is fueled by pride. People tend to arrive at ''reformed theology'' and get stuck in it.

:nono: Hardly ever. You don't really know as much as you think you do. You are kinda newbie, Truster. I don't know why, but Christmas time seems to bring out the worst in you. Odd that.

I'm not saying that reformed theology is devoid of truth, but the mixture of law and grace that is promoted, is as deadly as any sin of the flesh.

Says "justme-and-my-bible" :sigh: It amounts to you and only you that says so and you have an incredibly high opinion of yourself.
He wasn't looking for anti-Reformed rant, Trust.

If you do get caught up in it, but you are by regeneration, an heir of grace, the Great Shepherd of the flock will not leave you there. He will come and lead you out.

''I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments''.

If you are not regenerate, then you are in the broad way that leads to destruction, no theology will help you.

''.....for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:''

The wide gate is the gate of denominations and therefore denominational theology.

This is just ignorant says, as ignorant lone-ranger thinks and does. You simply assert, all on your own authority. Here is something incredibly important that you miss from scripture and Christ: Christianity is not only your relationship with Christ, but your relationship to the church which you reject. That is incredibly immature and incredibly arrogant in ignorance.

Don't bother responding, I'm not really interested in a counter-rebuttal. I'm interested in addressing an immature audacious newb and trying to impart directives and thoughts from the Spirit of God. You are left to your loner-self and your God. Listen to Him or not. Romans 12:5 Grow up lone-ranger.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Well, I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught that Christ died for all. And it made sense to me because i was only introduced to the verses that appeared to support that theology. But now that Christ is in me, I have a desire to know him and i am challenged with scripture like Romans 9. And to tell the truth my heart aches for the non-elect. not sure if that's right but that;s my feeling.


ARM

Died for all in what way? We know all are not saved, so what was the Christ's death all about for those that are not saved?

AMR

 

[ARMcCarley]

Died for all in what way? We know all are not saved, so what was the Christ's death all about for those that are not saved?

AMR

I think Christ's death purchased common grace for all mankind.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes, it's reformed- As in, it is the undoing of all the centuries of heresy.

People like assume control.. while saying that God is control. They say they chose God.. but it was the predisposition God put one in that made one choose.

Calvinism is the Gospel. Predestination and the elect are mentioned all through the Scriptures, and it's because there was a belief among the authors themselves that God decides all things. They would be skeptical of Arminian ideology before they ever would Calvinism, I can guarantee it.

Calvinism is a faulty belief system created by those who
misinterpret, misunderstand, and misrepresent the Bible
and God Himself.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Why? Paul says the Lord Jesus Christ died for all sin. Peter says he died for all sin of all time. Death reconciles God and sinners, just like as it is told in that Christmas carol. The cross is not salvation, it is reconciliation. Salvation is a gift. That gift is his life. People still have to accept that gift.

Romans 5

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

True.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I think Christ's death purchased common grace for all mankind.

How was this "common grace" operating beforehand?

I think we should reserve the word "grace" for topics of salvation. Why? First, God has a sort of general benevolence toward humanity that is not saving. Second, God providentially restrains evil. Third, unregenerate persons are able to do “civic” but not “saving” good. In short, using "common grace" is really a way of speaking about what we Reformed have traditionally have called “providence.”

God's providence has been active since creation, so I fail to see how Our Lord's death is connected to this.

Now, by use of the term, you mean the Arminian and Romanist notion of some gift still left in fallen man after the fall, that this fallen man can gradually gain by their good use of this gift a greater, that is, the evangelical or saving grace, and salvation itself, that is something I think beyond what we find in Scripture.

It is only when men start to deny all are fallen in Adam, and born sinners, that we find them arguing that some little "seed" remains within fallen men such that they possess the moral ability to choose wisely. Of course, embracing this means that either God administers this "common grace" in unequal measure such that you choose wisely while your neighbor does not, or that if all are administered sufficiently the means necessary to choose wisely, then a man's wise choice in both cases makes God a debtor.

AMR

 

[Crucible]

Calvinism is a faulty belief system created by those who
misinterpret, misunderstand, and misrepresent the Bible
and God Himself.

Calvinism is an acknowledgement, first and foremost, of God's supreme sovereignty- in which your will has no control over.

People are offended by Reformed doctrine because it is so intrinsically common with the Scriptures that, like the Scriptures, it resembles a sword. Other belief systems simply breed error, opening up interpretation as if too afraid to make someone uncomfortable or convicted.

Tulip is a representation of the ultimatum of grace or perdition, and that is that. Calvin was a bold man who finally stood up to the ridiculous web of doctrines that tried to necessitate human control over God. With Calvinism you don't have to worry about any kind of person telling you about your own fate.

 

[Truster]

I think Christ's death purchased common grace for all mankind.

''Common'' grace is a heresy and is one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard of.

 

[Jonahdog]

Unconditional election
a reformed doctrine relating to Predestination that describes the actions and motives of God in eternity past, before He created the world, where he predestinated some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the old and new Testaments of the Bible. God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons.


All the way from the lineages of the wicked and God's chosen to now, Broseph. Every author of the Bible believed in Unconditional Election.

Your god loves his creation so much that he decided ahead of time who gets to spend an eternity in hell? What kind of love is that?

And you wonder why people with any sense look at Christian theology and walk away.

 

[Jonahdog]

God providentially restrains evil.

How's that working our for you? Lots of evil in the world, either your reformed god is not very good at what you think he does or he allows certain evil. If the first then he is not very "godlike", if the second he is just playing with us for his own amusement.

 

[musterion]

Limited Atonement was and still is one i wrestle with.

Do you have concerns about the idea of God damning people for unbelief when not believing is exactly what He intended they do?

 

[Lon]

Your god loves his creation so much that he decided ahead of time who gets to spend an eternity in hell? What kind of love is that?

Er the kind of love that saves the salvable.

And you wonder why people with any sense look at Christian theology and walk away.

:nono: "Salvable." Understand? If you are salvable, you will be saved. On top of that, Calvinism is a pretty small section of Christianity. This then, isn't why people walk away from Christianity.

How's that working our for you? Lots of evil in the world, either your reformed god is not very good at what you think he does or he allows certain evil.

The latter.

If the first then he is not very "godlike", if the second he is just playing with us for his own amusement.

So 'you' are the passenger rather than connected to this generation? "We" are responsible for what happens on this earth. News focuses on the few scant atrocities all-the-while missing the beautiful acts one human being does upon another 99.9% of time and by 99.9% of the people. You've been duped by media hype. As much as people want to think they are not media-driven drones, they certainly are. Atrocity is the 'least' thing happening in the world. We do have parents not doing a good job with their kids, but we can actually do something about those things.

Why are you trolling this thread, Jonah? It doesn't have a lot to do with your disgruntling. I was thinking of reporting 'trolling' for your posts. While they are trolling and not at all helpful to this thread, I thought to address perhaps a greater need of your own, but what is it? It has nothing to do with the specific topic of this thread. I'm trying to remember where there is a thread where the actual topic deals with these objections. Is there an 'Ask a Reformed' thread?

 

[musterion]

Lon,

The idea that some are "unsavable" solely due to His decree for them in eternity past still doesn't pose a problem for you?

Really?

 

[Lon]

Do you have concerns about the idea of God damning people for unbelief when not believing is exactly what He intended they do?

It is exactly what the Universalist says to you: That God 'can' save everybody and that not doing so makes him somehow guilty. Calvinism isn't much different from you, when you address a universalists. God saves all that are salvable (to whatever extent that definition holds both to God and man). The separation between the Calvinist and another tends to be over EDF (God's Omniscience) and how God owns that knowledge, but owning knowledge doesn't by necessity implicate guilt. The God of my Calvinism should be innocent until 'proven' guilty and He is innocent.

 

[Jonahdog]

Why are you trolling this thread, Jonah? It doesn't have a lot to do with your disgruntling. I was thinking of reporting 'trolling' for your posts. While they are trolling and not at all helpful to this thread, I thought to address perhaps a greater need of your own, but what is it? It has nothing to do with the specific topic of this thread. I'm trying to remember where there is a thread where the actual topic deals with these objections. Is there an 'Ask a Reformed' thread?

Trolling? My, my. I though I was making a comment and asking questions based on the reformed theology put forth in this thread. Guess I offended you. Didn't know you were the police here.

You post did little to respond to my issues. Just more of the standard pretentious Lon I have read before.

Enjoy the weekend.

 

[musterion]

It is exactly what the Universalist says to you: That God 'can' save everybody and that not doing so makes him somehow guilty.

And they err in overemphasizing His grace and love over His holiness and justice.

Calvinism isn't much different from you, when you address a universalists. God saves all that are salvable (to whatever extent that definition holds both to God and man).

This is where you err, which is why I addressed that specific question to you - if God determined in eternity passed who is and is not saved (which you accept as true on its face), then the Gospel is a sham: all who are fated to believe it are already unthwartably safe by virtue of election; the rest have no hope but the Lake. The Gospel is a mere formality for the elect and the ultimate prank on the reprobate.

This isn't a matter of what He foreknows...it's about what Reformed theology claims He actively decreed for ALL. It makes Bible Christianity just a more refined form of typical pagan fatalism where the eternity of everyone is unalterably set before they're born.

The God of my Calvinism should be innocent until 'proven' guilty and He is innocent.

The god of Calvinism is false.

 

[Lon]

Lon,

The idea that some are "unsavable" solely due to His decree for them in eternity past still doesn't pose a problem for you?

Really?

This is a little like asking if God is not good because many are going to hell, isn't it?

Unless you are an Open Theist, you approach the topic after a similar fashion as I do, but even the Open Theist claims God is Omnicompetent, thus there is a logical problem with all men not being saved. We are both opposed to Universal salvation. After a crude fashion, we are on the same page, just getting there a different way. I understand scrutiny and appreciate it. Thanks for asking. I prefer scrutiny to 'guilty!'

Certainly ask more questions (please) if this does not suffice for answer. I had written something much longer but thought to pare it down for your ease of reading as well as allow you to drive the questions and discussion on this point.
In Him, -Lon

 

[musterion]

I think Christ's death purchased common grace for all mankind.

The death of Christ made it possible for anyone who hears the saving Gospel to be saved. God still wants to be believed and so still requires faith, but the figurative door to the ark is open to all. That's what Paul said.

Calvinism says the blood of Christ wasn't even shed for those God chose to reprobate, making the Gospel a really bad joke... they can't believe it, and the elect don't really need it.

Thing is, TULIP is a unit; you really can't remove one of the cards without the house of cards falling down (on that, 5 pointers are correct). Disprove limited atonement and the rest fails.