Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination

[Robert Pate]

Even if this was true, it doesn't excuse you from not being able to answer simple questions about the inconsistencies of your theology.

There are no inconsistencies in my theology because it is based upon the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your theology is based upon what was written by a heretic in the 1500's.

 

[NickCharles]

There are no inconsistencies in my theology because it is based upon the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



Your theology is based upon what was written by a heretic in the 1500's.

That's still not the point. If yours was based on scripture, you'd be able to answer my questions. Instead, you want to throw insults. Which do you think brings more glory to God?

 

[beloved57]

There are no inconsistencies in my theology because it is based upon the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your theology is based upon what was written by a heretic in the 1500's.

How is it based on the Gospel of Christ when you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ, Tulip truths! Also you deny that Christ death alone saved from sins and unbelief all for whom He lived and died!

Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief?

 

[Shasta]

I know its sad when one has to quote one's own post...
...but to correct my previous post....

I am not against predestination of the kind where God wants something (a Jeremiah) and works to get it.

I am against predestination of the spooky kind which says that God has pre-planned one and only one future for all of us.

What makes something "spooky?" That seems to be a very subjective term. I mean a materialist would say that all the thoughts and actions of an infinite supernatural Being were "spooky" because they transcend human understanding and limitation.

 

[Shasta]

How is it based on the Gospel of Christ when you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ, Tulip truths! Also you deny that Christ death alone saved from sins and unbelief all for whom He lived and died!

Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief?

Limited atonement leads to the doctrine of predetermined damnation for the majority of mankind. There is no grace whatsoever in that "Tulip Truth."

 

[Shasta]

Thank you for making me look up what an "open theist" is.

Theopedia defines it as...
"Open theism, also called free will theism and openness theology, is the belief that God does not exercise meticulous control of the universe but leaves it "open" for humans to make significant choices (free will) that impact their relationships with God and others. A corollary of this is that God has not predetermined the future. Open Theists further believe that this would imply that God does not know the future exhaustively. Proponents affirm that God is omniscient, but deny that this means that God knows everything that will happen."

Wow - that is exactly what I believe.

Nobody in the Early Church was an open theist. They all believed that knowing the future was an aspect of God's omniscience. Neither though did they believe in predeterminism. They believed man had a freewill. This was taught for 300 years until Augustine brought Platonic ideas into Church theology.

 

[beloved57]

Limited atonement leads to the doctrine of predetermined damnation for the majority of mankind. There is no grace whatsoever in that "Tulip Truth."

Limited atonement is Gospel Truth, if you don't believe it you are in unbelief still !

 

[Shasta]

Predestination is a complicated business. In point form I am summarising what I believe so that one does not end up bickering over things one actually is in agreement on.

1. God predicted certain things in advance, that He would make a world, and create mortals, and save them.
2. God can predict things because He has the power to make them come to pass (predestination of the 1st or non-spooky kind).
3. God cannot predict precise details of the future because the future will be decided in collaboration with the choices man makes. There are things pertaining to the future which don't involve man, and these God can predict perfectly, because He has total control over these.
4. Therefore there is no predestination of the spooky kind or 2nd kind when it comes to mankind, because each person has freedom to decide his own future.
5. God wills to have every person to be saved.
6. But God knows that this is a numbers game, and that some will not be saved.
7. Thus, knowing that some failure was inevitable, in advance, God prepared a hell where those who don't choose Him will be thrown into, and burn UP, not burn forever.
8. For those who choose Him, He is preparing a kingdom in heaven, which will eventually relocate to earth as the New Jerusalem.
9. The best kept secret in the Bible is the ratio of saved to lost. This will only be revealed at Christ's second coming and onwards.
10. "9" above is not even known exactly by God, since it depends on the choices folks make, right up to His 2nd coming. Choosing the "mark of the Beast" for instance will exclude you from His kingdom.
11. Or, God forbid, Christ is going to prepare a place for us, and there are only so many places in His kingdom, and then it's full. Only the best of the best up to that number make it into His kingdom. God does say that His Kingdom suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. This is like describing opening day at a sale. His saints have to storm His kingdom.

I have numbered this in case anyone wishes to say which points they do and do not agree with, so that we do not end up talking at cross purposes.

If man's freewill decisions are unknown to God how does He even know the ratio of believers to unbelievers? If the raw number of believers and unbelievers cannot be known then how can the ratio between the raw numbers be calculated?

 

[Shasta]

Limited atonement is Gospel Truth, if you don't believe it you are in unbelief still !

Lets set aside your repetition of your belief for a moment and return to your post to Pate:

How is it based on the Gospel of Christ when you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ, Tulip truths! Also you deny that Christ death alone saved from sins and unbelief all for whom He lived and died!

Don't you believe that millions for whom Christ lived and died shall wind up in Hell for their sins in unbelief?

You seem to think if Christ died for any who did not receive Him then His sacrifice is somehow a "waste" as if grace were a substance which like gasoline is dispensed to so many souls, with any unused "grace" going to "waste." This is a short sighted and concrete way of looking at it. What Christ bought was the opportunity for anyone who believes in Him to be saved. This means He died knowing many would refuse his offer. What you might think of as "wasteful" I call the incredible extravagance of His mercy

Your conception of God, is of a Being who loves ONLY those He knew would eventually obey Him. There is no "wasteful" expenditure of love there. He measures out his suffering so as to save only the allotted number of those he arbitrarily chose to save. Calvin's God is reminiscent of Muhammed's Allah who loves only the obedient and who destines all other men to hell.

Calvin's God has foreordained that most men to go to hell. The crime of the damned is "not believing in Jesus" yet it is God who refuses to give them the grace they need to believe and be saved. Instead He hardens their heart to assure their judgment. To punish men who refused to believe is justice. To punish them when they never had the opportunity in this first place is cruel and unjust.

Where is the grace of God in this?

 

[patrick jane]

Lets set aside your repetition of your belief for a moment and return to your post to Pate:



You seem to think if Christ died for any who did not receive Him then His sacrifice is somehow a "waste" as if grace were a substance which like gasoline is dispensed to so many souls, with any unused "grace" going to "waste." This is a short sighted and concrete way of looking at it. What Christ bought was the opportunity for anyone who believes in Him to be saved. This means He died knowing many would refuse his offer. What you might think of as "wasteful" I call the incredible extravagance of His mercy

Your conception of God, is of a Being who loves ONLY those He knew would eventually obey Him. There is no "wasteful" expenditure of love there. He measures out his suffering so as to save only the allotted number of those he arbitrarily chose to save. Calvin's God is reminiscent of Muhammed's Allah who loves only the obedient and who destines all other men to hell.

Calvin's God has foreordained that most men to go to hell. The crime of the damned is "not believing in Jesus" yet it is God who refuses to give them the grace they need to believe and be saved. Instead He hardens their heart to assure their judgment. To punish men who refused to believe is justice. To punish them when they never had the opportunity in this first place is cruel and unjust.

Where is the grace of God in this?

true dat.

 

[patrick jane]

Since when did you believe in Jesus? You teach that millions upon millions for whom He died, shall wind up in hell lost in their sins in unbelief! That's not believing in Jesus!

No, that's what NOT believing in Jesus Christ gets you - hell

 

[beloved57]

Lets set aside your repetition of your belief for a moment and return to your post to Pate:



You seem to think if Christ died for any who did not receive Him then His sacrifice is somehow a "waste" as if grace were a substance which like gasoline is dispensed to so many souls, with any unused "grace" going to "waste." This is a short sighted and concrete way of looking at it. What Christ bought was the opportunity for anyone who believes in Him to be saved. This means He died knowing many would refuse his offer. What you might think of as "wasteful" I call the incredible extravagance of His mercy

Your conception of God, is of a Being who loves ONLY those He knew would eventually obey Him. There is no "wasteful" expenditure of love there. He measures out his suffering so as to save only the allotted number of those he arbitrarily chose to save. Calvin's God is reminiscent of Muhammed's Allah who loves only the obedient and who destines all other men to hell.

Calvin's God has foreordained that most men to go to hell. The crime of the damned is "not believing in Jesus" yet it is God who refuses to give them the grace they need to believe and be saved. Instead He hardens their heart to assure their judgment. To punish men who refused to believe is justice. To punish them when they never had the opportunity in this first place is cruel and unjust.

Where is the grace of God in this?

I'm not setting aside the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ because of your unbelief!

 

[beloved57]

No, that's what NOT believing in Jesus Christ gets you - hell

Not if Christ died for you, you can't go to Hell! Even when those Christ died for are enemies and unbelievers, they have already been reconciled to God Rom 5:10 !

 

[iouae]

Limited atonement leads to the doctrine of predetermined damnation for the majority of mankind. There is no grace whatsoever in that "Tulip Truth."

You are quite right to soundly condemn the idea that a loving God predestined some to burn in an ever-burning hellfire.

Most Christians cannot even explain how an eskimo living before Christ, was supposed to hear the Gospel and be saved.

That leads to ridiculous theories that Christ came to die for the sins of all (true) but they don't have to choose Him because all are saved. Problem with this theory is I don't want to spend eternity with Hitler, Judas,... and a whole lot of other unsavories - and neither does God. That is why His party is by invitation only.

Another problem Christians cannot explain is how the BC eskimo will receive his invite - which he will.

 

[iouae]

Nobody in the Early Church was an open theist. They all believed that knowing the future was an aspect of God's omniscience. Neither though did they believe in predeterminism. They believed man had a freewill. This was taught for 300 years until Augustine brought Platonic ideas into Church theology.

I did not know I was an "open theist" until AskMrReligion told me.
Maybe they did not have AskMrReligion to tell them they were "open theists" back then, but like me, they believed it anyway.

 

[NickCharles]

Limited atonement leads to the doctrine of predetermined damnation for the majority of mankind. There is no grace whatsoever in that "Tulip Truth."

You assume that grace is deserved.

 

[Robert Pate]

You are quite right to soundly condemn the idea that a loving God predestined some to burn in an ever-burning hellfire.

Most Christians cannot even explain how an eskimo living before Christ, was supposed to hear the Gospel and be saved.

That leads to ridiculous theories that Christ came to die for the sins of all (true) but they don't have to choose Him because all are saved. Problem with this theory is I don't want to spend eternity with Hitler, Judas,... and a whole lot of other unsavories - and neither does God. That is why His party is by invitation only.

Another problem Christians cannot explain is how the BC eskimo will receive his invite - which he will.

I will explain it to you.

People are saved the same way today as they were in the Old Testament. They were saved by faith.

They knew that they were sinners and they believed that God would provide them with a savior. They had faith in God's promises. Many people that have never heard about God or Christ have repentant hearts. These are the ones that come to Christ when they hear the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is in the world convicting all people of sin and their need for a savior. Nothing has changed, the just still live by faith.

 

[beloved57]

I will explain it to you.

People are saved the same way today as they were in the Old Testament. They were saved by faith.

They knew that they were sinners and they believed that God would provide them with a savior. They had faith in God's promises. Many people that have never heard about God or Christ have repentant hearts. These are the ones that come to Christ when they hear the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is in the world convicting all people of sin and their need for a savior. Nothing has changed, the just still live by faith.

How you telling folk how someone is saved when you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace and promote a salvation by works, by what a person does !

 

[Shasta]

I'm not setting aside the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ because of your unbelief!

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a (reasoned) defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence (1 Peter 3:15)


I have come to expect this kind of reply. Instead of using a scripture-based reasoned defense to prove your position and deconstruct that of your opponent you return to a dogmatic profession of your slavish devotion to Calvinism. You might as well make a rosary of the Five Petals of Tulip and recite it over and over.

 

[beloved57]

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a (reasoned) defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence (1 Peter 3:15)


I have come to expect this kind of reply. Instead of using a scripture-based reasoned defense to prove your position and deconstruct that of your opponent you return to a dogmatic profession of your slavish devotion to Calvinism. You might as well make a rosary of the Five Petals of Tulip and recite it over and over.

My Hope lies in the Gospel I teach and defend in my threads and posts, have you read them ?