Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination

[beloved57]

Oh, you are being silly now. All that has, is, or will happen in God's creation appear before Him equally vividly. So asking what God knows and when He knew it implies one does not have a full grasp of the eternal existence of God. Accordingly, one must distinguish between God's perspective and man's perspective, since man is bound in a timeless existence created by God.

This does not mean God is incapable of acting within His temporally created and orderly universe. These actions, as in our regeneration, occur in time, the time of the one so regenerated. The very regenerative act is predicated on the active and passive obedience of Our Lord, who became flesh and walked the earth, per our temporal existence. God understands temporal existence and His knowing what occurs in time springs from the fact that He created the very things to be known by Him.

So again I note from our perspective we are not eternally justified, for the very ground of our justification relies upon Our Lord's perfect work during His earthly sojourn among us.

Your question and the obvious underlying assumption you make behind it leads to all manner of foolishness. For example, using your rationale you could just as easily, but wrongly, say that Our Lord was crucified and resurrected appearing before God the Father in glory before the event actually happened. Obviously that makes no sense, as does your question. No one is justified before they believe. That God sees all these things equally vividly does not obviate the accompanying fact that God also knows exactly when in our temporal existence someone is justified.

Your view collapses the distinction between God's eternal decree of justification and the temporal justification itself. Your view also imports a notion that faith merely realizes justification somehow already possessed by the one believing, even before they actually believe.

Furthermore, your view would mean God sees no sin in believers even before they believe, since you claim their act of belief is a mirage of sorts. For God to not see any sin in the believer also means our Lord becomes personally a sinner, and believers are made personally righteous; any idea of Scriptural imputation vanishes.

No, your view is word salad.

AMR

Way to evade my question!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Way to evade my question!

Huh?

You were given very complete answers. If you are unable to interact with the content just say so versus this sort of wave off.

AMR

 

[beloved57]

Huh?

You were given very complete answers. If you are unable to interact with the content just say so versus this sort of wave off.

AMR

Once again :

When you say from Gods perspective, do you mean they are Justified before God and by God before they believe and while enemies?Yes or No!

Simple yes or no is what I asked you!

 

[Shasta]

Never said they did. But they are there. If you don't believe in eternal security, fine. At least I'm not worried that God will take away my salvation.

I do not believe in unconditional eternal security but I never worry about my salvation either. As a happily married man I also admit I never worry if I am going to "fall" into adultery and leave my wife. When you enjoy intimacy and fellowship those issues do not arise. At the same time I do not expose myself to anything which would lead me into temptation.

Some people have the misconception that those of us who do not believe in unconditional eternal security live in eternal INsecurity. It is not true for me or any of those I associate with. The other misconception is that if we do not believe everything is locked in then we believe in a salvation by "works." I believe in abiding in Him by faith. Though Jesus does want us to obey him His yoke is easy and His burden is light (Matthew 11:30) and His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3). It is a lot harder to walk in sin. As the Bible says "the way of the transgressor is hard (Proverbs 13:15)"

 

[Shasta]

Once again :

When you say from Gods perspective, do you mean they are Justified before God and by God before they believe and while enemies?Yes or No!

Simple yes or no is what I asked you!

While I think you are way off about this you might have a point. IF God does exist in a timeless NOW then all moments past, present, and future are equally real. AMR takes the more rational position that God SEES all moments equally but that is really about foreknowledge rather than God's non-temporality. However, I agree with AMR's assessment of your doctrines as a "word salad." You do not seem to allow for any transition from death to life. Rather you act like the elect have eternally been saved.

You need to reexamine your eternal justification doctrine which is incoherent, irrational and unscriptural. If believers were never God's enemies they would have never needed to be reconciled to Him. Yet Paul said there that there was a time when we were "alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds" (Col. 1:21)


BTW if you are going to follow Calvinism you would do well to listen to AMR. He knows far more about it than either you or I.

 

[Shasta]

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth , and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Notice how the servant had his debt forgiven. But because he in turn refused to forgive, God reinstated the debt.

That is how you can become unsealed or unforgiven.

The unjust servant had his debt reinstated. I do not see how you get around that.

 

[Shasta]

Unforgiving people prove that they have never been born of God

Those whom God seals are sealed for eternity.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.

Ephesians 1:13New King James Version (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Do you really believe (true) Christians never hold grudges? I see them doing it all the time.

 

[beloved57]

While I think you are way off about this you might have a point. IF God does exist in a timeless NOW then all moments past, present, and future are equally real. AMR takes the more rational position that God SEES all moments equally but that is really about foreknowledge rather than God's non-temporality. However, I agree with AMR's assessment of your doctrines as a "word salad." You do not seem to allow for any transition from death to life. Rather you act like the elect have eternally been saved.

You need to reexamine your eternal justification doctrine which is incoherent, irrational and unscriptural. If believers were never God's enemies they would have never needed to be reconciled to Him. Yet Paul said there that there was a time when we were "alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds" (Col. 1:21)


BTW if you are going to follow Calvinism you would do well to listen to AMR. He knows far more about it than either you or I.

Both of you are unbelievers and serve a different god from the God I know and believe in!

 

[Shasta]

If we believe in Christ we shall not perish. Once we have done so we are sealed with the Spirit of promise. Could you tell me how to become unsealed?

To understand the metaphor of a "seal" we have to remember what it literally was. In the First Century seals were blobs of wax that were applied to documents when soft and then impressed with a signet ring or stamp which bore the insignia of someone in authority. Seals were used to ratify legal agreements and to authenticate documents. Just as our property deeds and legal agreements are sealed by the Notary Publics paper impress so the documents of people of the First Century were ratified by wax seals.

Despite the connotation in English "Seals" did not provide unbreakable security. Since they were made of wax they could be broken; however since they bore the insignia of a ruler breaking it before the proper time could have legal consequences. Because of this, the owner of the document had to take care that the seal remained intact until the time came for the document to be opened. If the seal was not maintained the document could be rendered invalid in the day that it was presented for recompense.

With regard to the meaning of seals the Bible has this to say:

The Holy Spirit is the "guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph 1:13-14).

The actual redemption of what has been purchased comes when we are ready to enter into the joy of the Lord.

The word also says this:

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

The Spirit is able to help us stand firm. He can enable us to meet any challenge. He continually abides in us guiding us towards home. However this fellowship is not unbreakable. The Holy Spirit can be resisted, quenched and grieved.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

The Day of Redemption is when we present the deed of our inheritance and inherit immortality in the World to Come.

The thing that offends the Spirit most is a hardened unbelieving heart which develops over time if we allow it to. Ancient Israel had a "deed" for an earthly inheritance but they continued to rebel against the Spirit until finally they were forbidden to enter (Hebrews 3:7-11). The Bible says that what happened to them is example applicable to us (1 Corinthians 10:10-12) The writer of Hebrews warns us about the the danger of having a hardened heart and about the consequences adopting a lifestyle of rebellion.

12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, IF indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
(Hebrews 3:7-11)

The promise of being a sharer in Christ is conditioned upon our continuing on in the faith we have received to the end.

 

[Shasta]

Both of you are unbelievers and serve a different god from the God I know and believe in!

Why don't you refute my argument?

 

[beloved57]

Why don't you refute my argument?

You are a unbeliever to me, you have not stated anything that is true and valid by scripture! You have not proved anything! I'm not here to just argue for nothing!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Both of you are unbelievers and serve a different god from the God I know and believe in!

Besides your apparent sycophant, nanja, please specifically name members at this site you know from your interactions or reviews of their posts to not be unbelievers. Of course, I assume you count yourself among this list, so that is two by my count. Anyone else? :idunno:

Or how about crafting a post listing all the first order essentials of faith you consider the dividing line between the believer and the professing but not possessing person?

AMR

 

[beloved57]

Besides your apparent sycophant, nanja, please specifically name members at this site you know from your interactions or reviews of their posts to not be unbelievers. Of course, I assume you count yourself among this list, so that is two by my count. Anyone else? :idunno:

Or how about crafting a post listing all the first order essentials of faith you consider the dividing line between the believer and the professing but not possessing person?

AMR

Just worry about yourself! Did you forget about the question?

 

[Shasta]

You are a unbeliever to me, you have not stated anything that is true and valid by scripture! You have not proved anything! I'm not here to just argue for nothing!

That's just it. You make a lot of statements but you do not answer objections. AMR just spent a lot of time detailing why he thought your view is wrong yet you have not posted a word refuting what he said. My last post to you was very short yet you do not bother to respond to me either. A discussion is give and take. It seems to me that you only want to broadcast your opinions.

To engage in a meaningful discussion you have to take the time to understand what the other person is saying. I understand what you are saying. If you are going to engage in a discussion you should be willing to do the same for others.

 

[beloved57]

That's just it. You make a lot of statements but you do not answer objections. AMR just spent a lot of time detailing why he thought your view is wrong yet you have not posted a word refuting what he said. My last post to you was very short yet you do not bother to respond to me either. A discussion is give and take. It seems to me that you only want to broadcast your opinions.

To engage in a meaningful discussion you have to take the time to understand what the other person is saying. I understand what you are saying. If you are going to engage in a discussion you should be willing to do the same for others.

Read my threads and posts, and compare what I believe with what you believe and that responds to your objections! Everything I believe and why are there, including why I see you as a unbeliever!

 

[ttruscott]

Reconciliation PROVES predestination!

 

[Shasta]

Read my threads and posts, and compare what I believe with what you believe and that responds to your objections! Everything I believe and why are there, including why I see you as a unbeliever!

I see. You broadcast your opinions and people are just supposed to read it and figure it out for themselves. You do not want to be bothered with answering questions and objections. This saves you the trouble of having to figure out what other people are saying. Well, that is not a discussion. That is a monologue.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Read my threads and posts, and compare what I believe with what you believe and that responds to your objections! Everything I believe and why are there, including why I see you as a unbeliever!

One would think one could point another to a specific post that they authored on a specific topic easily enough. You know your own words well enough to search for the right post and provide a link thereto rather than expecting someone to go on some hunt for them, no?

AMR

 

[beloved57]

I see. You broadcast your opinions and people are just supposed to read it and figure it out for themselves. You do not want to be bothered with answering questions and objections. This saves you the trouble of having to figure out what other people are saying. Well, that is not a discussion. That is a monologue.

Well which one of my threads you want to debate?

 

[beloved57]

One would think one could point another to a specific post that they authored on a specific topic easily enough. You know your own words well enough to search for the right post and provide a link thereto rather than expecting someone to go on some hunt for them, no?

AMR

Which one of my threads do you want to debate?