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Rapture Ready
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everready
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SaulToPaul 2
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let me ask you a question about the following passage from the 24th chapter of Matthew:
"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:38-41).
This passage is speaking of what will happen when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth. Do you think that the people who are said to be "taken" are the ones who will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?
Thanks!
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So are you saying that this took place during the Jewish War?:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Hi everready,
The Christians in the video seem to think that the following verse in "bold" is referring to when the "catching up" of the saints happens:
"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:38-41).
Is that right?
Do you think that the people who will be "taken" in this passage are the ones who will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?
Thanks!
everready
New member
Hi Jerry! i believe its referring to..
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Your welcome!
everready
Mt24:31 describes the regathering of the dispersed of Israel back to the land which is according to prophecy for Israel. It has nothing to do with the Body of Christ or a rapture of that body.
The 'elect' at the time of that prophecy were the same 'elect' as had been since the days of Moses, the nation of Israel. Christ, in His earthly ministry was sent only to Israel and the things that He proclaimed were for Israel and in harmony with what the prophets had already declared for Israel.
Deu 7:6 For thou art a holy people to the Lord thy God; and the Lord thy God chose[elected] thee to be to him a peculiar people beyond all nations that are upon the face of the earth.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Deu 4:31 For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
Eze 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
Eze 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer_30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Jer_31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Typical exegetical mistake of inserting the mystery body of Christ into a prophecy which concerns the nation of Israel.
The 'elect' of Mt 24 are the same 'elect' since the time of Moses, the nation of Israel.
Wrong presuppositions yield wrong conclusions.
The Olivet discourse can only be understood through seeing it in its proper context....to Israel.
The tribulation is the final seven years of a prophecy which concerns Israel and the nations.
If the first 483 years was prophetically fulfilled by Israel, then the last seven will be, as well. 'Daniel's people'
Matthew 24:24-25 False christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.
How familiar are Jews with the teachings of Jesus Christ to where the Jews could be decieved?
Matthew 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Romans 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Colossians 3:12-13 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another, even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
Do you use a Hamilton Beach, Oster, Vitamix or some other brand blender?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
But isn't that the same coming spoken of here?:
"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:38-41).
It must be the same coming or else you have two different "comings" which will happen after the great tribulation is over.
So is it the same "coming" or not?
Thanks!
musterion
Well-known member
Revelation ch. 6 teaches that from the start, the Tribulation is the wrath of Christ Himself:
Get that straight: the entire seven year period is wrath.
Christ's wrath.
Since His Body is not appointed to wrath, 1 Thess 5:9, those who are in Christ must be removed from the scene no later than the point at which Rev 6 takes place.
That means all attempts to split the Trib (wrath of Satan/wrath of God), or mid/post Trib raptures, are flat denials of WHOSE wrath it will be.
Get that straight: the entire seven year period is wrath.
Christ's wrath.
Since His Body is not appointed to wrath, 1 Thess 5:9, those who are in Christ must be removed from the scene no later than the point at which Rev 6 takes place.
That means all attempts to split the Trib (wrath of Satan/wrath of God), or mid/post Trib raptures, are flat denials of WHOSE wrath it will be.
The video is right.
The tribulation is one thing and the great tribulation is another.
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
LA
No. It does not.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
No seven year period is mentioned in the NT or in Revelation.
Neither is any rapture shown to occur before such a time.
Jesus was talking to His disciples in Mat ch 24 and did not mention a pre-trib rapture.
No. The wrath of God (not the vials) actually begins before His coming to raise the saints, because judgment must begin in Gods House, the churches, as trumpets and the letters to the churches describe--
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Except that the vials of wrath are poured out after Christ's return, and not through man, but the trumpet wraths are in using man to do most of them, before Christ returns and the resurrection occurs at the seventh trumpet.
LA
musterion
Well-known member
Go to Hell, you lying murder loving false prophet.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Jesus doesn't mention a rapture in Mt24A because it is about 1st century Judea. It does mention a way for the church to leave, and when it should leave. Over in Thess which was also written about the 1st century and with the belief that the 2nd coming in judgement should happen right after the destruction of Jerusalem, it mentions this reuniting with Christ (in which 'rapture' can mean the subjective 'delight') because of this belief.
The two most important things you can sort out in doing historic NT theology are:
1, understand that Mt24A and parallels are about 1st century Judea
2, form conclusions about what the 1st generation of the church did/believed once the 2nd coming and worldwide judgement did not happen immediately after #1
musterion
Well-known member
You're half right for once, instead of being totally wrong. True, He did not mention it, but only because it was still a secret that had to do with a Body that did not yet exist.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Right Divider
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The word "church" is NOT the NAME of a SINGLE entity, IP.