Right Divider
Body part
You really enjoy trying to create a false dilemma, don't you?
And yet you provide no scripture..... good work.
Accepting God's grace by faith changes a persons will.
ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
Accepting God's grace by faith changes a persons will.
dodge
New member
Not at all it is not false ! If one is not even willing to stop sinning I would argue that they have no faith in the instructions of God to NOT sin.
Again do YOU have any scripture to support one does not have to be willing to stop sinning. I believe you cannot produce even one verse that supports the lie.
1st faith then grace. Is faith a "willingness" on our part to believe, trust ,and follow God ? I believe it is.
Right Divider
Body part
Being saved by grace through faith makes one want to be perfect before God.
YOU were the one making a CLAIM about what scripture said.
YOU need to supply that SCRIPTURE.
It's just that simple
:french:
I never support lies.
You are really hung up on "willingness".
God's grace came FIRST. God offers His grace, which we accept by faith.
While we were YET sinners, Christ died for us (Rom 5:8).
dodge
New member
Not a problem:
Mat 7:24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
I would disagree based on scripture. Still you have provided NO scripture to support that a man does not have to be willing to not sin.
Mat 7:24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Your will will either accept salvation paid for by Jesus or your will will deny TRUTH.
Correct Grace was provided 1st you by your will accepted that grace, which you by your will if you had rejected would still be you exercising YOUR WILL.
Jhn 9:31
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Are you a Calvinist because you sure sound like one ?
Paul was probably the Apostle most concerned with the Church's behavior (e.g. among many, Colossians 3:5 KJV and following), but even he, when contemplating your very thought here, said Galatians 2:17 (KJV), not that, "We should stop," even though he was probably the Apostle most concerned with the Church's behavior; he wasn't teaching that behavior impacts the Church's salvation; not the Apostle who wrote 1st Corinthians 15:3 (KJV) and Colossians 2:13-14 (KJV).
But what should we not trust in ever? See Philippians 3:3-4 (KJV) and following; see John 6:63 (KJV) and Galatians 2:21 (KJV) and Galatians 3:3 (KJV). 1st Corinthians 15:3 (KJV)
I grew up around people who were sometimes very passive aggressive, and who passive aggressively used the words of Scripture as bats with which to hit people, people who are just much His servants as they are. (People for the most part don't consciously know they're doing it, but they do puff up with pride when doing so.)
Not "will have" but we have already, we are already home. Colossians 3:2-3 (KJV) Ephesians 2:6 (KJV)
A shipwreck doesn't mean that the journey is over, as Paul knew. Acts 27:41 (KJV) and following.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
if a person has saving faith then he has already received eternal life. And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.
No if's, but's, or maybe's. His promise is an unconditional promise. Those who truly believe have been given eternal life and they will never perish.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If you think that stopping sinning is a "condition" of salvation then you must not believe what Paul and those with him answered here:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
Those who are already saved are to keep ourselves holy but that is not a condition of salvation. i know no Christian who does not have a desire to stop sinning.
dodge
New member
You cannot find ONE place where I said as a condition of salvation one has to stop sinning anywhere !
YOU cannot find any scripture to support that one does not have to be"willing " to stop sinning. You are making excuses to continue to sin and claim to be following God at the same time. Sin happens but it sure as hell shouldn't be us "willing" to continue in sin.
I do not care how you divert or bait and switch if one is NOT even "willing" to stop sinning how then does that person place their faith in a Holy God who says to stop sinning. I am not of the camp that believes one can earn their salvation, but you cannot claim to love and follow God and not even be "willing" to stop sinning. Scripture describes sin as a trap set by Satan. Scripture NEVER ever hints that it is OK to be "willing" to sin, and you have not even one verse to support THAT it is OK with God to be "willing" to sin.
Sin is disobeying God and every one that places their faith in God has no clue who God is if they are not "willing" to stop sinning.
I would even believe that if one approaches God with the "willingness' to continue to keep sinning that their faith is not in God it is in themselves, and Satan already won that battle.
You do understand your "willing" or willingness is what you choose to do ?
At the point of conversion I am sure the jailer saw his own sinfulness when he asked what must I do to be saved. Saved from what ? Saved from the penalty of his sin.
The jailer was answered by being told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who had already paid for his sin.
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
Or look at it this way. Can one approach God through faith and NOT be " willing" to stop sinning ?
musterion
Well-known member
dodge
New member
There was a price paid for our sins as you know. The question was "MUST" one be willing to stop sinning to be saved correct ?
If one is NOT "willing" to stop sinning in their approach to God in asking for forgiveness for the sins they have already committed with no "willingness" to stop sinning on their part I seriously doubt if they were sincere and or saved !
"If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship the One with the other, and the blood of Jesus his Son (continuously) cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and the truth is not in us." (I John 1:6-10 my paraphrase )
Your concern is...a valid one.
Your understanding of the answer...is not.
For its' answer is not found in what the Believing remnant of Israel had been instructed in via THEIR Prophesied Grace as to THEIR answer to such a serious issue.
This side of God's Mystery Grace OUR answer, OUR solution is found in passages like the following...
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
And what was that?
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Both respective answers to this serious issue - the notion that one can live anyway they want - faced by both the Believing remant of Israel prior to unbelieving Israel's fall, and by formerly lost Jews Gentiles now in the Body after unbelieving Israel's fall, had each their respective answer to this issue, in the Lord...
Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family IN heaven AND earth is named,
There are things that difffer between the two.
And there are things that only appear to differ between the two.
And there are things that are the same between the two.
And there things that only appear to be the same between the two.
This here is right out of the gospel of John...
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Who were they? What had THEY believed?
1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
In contrast to them, there were those Israelites who only claimed to know Him - they were who 1st John 1:9-10 is addressing...
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 5:41 I receive not honour from men. 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
What happens when some of them appear to have believed on Him?
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
They were the ones saying they had no sin.
In other words, lost people within the nation of God that Israel was as His chosen people "above all the nations of THE EARTH" - as that only nation in all of history to this very day, that He had chosen to bring about His will FOR THE EARTH...through.
Concerning the Lord, THEY were required to believe as John and his companions had believed...
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
That's it.
Not that He died for their sins; but that He was THEIR Prophesied Christ - the King of Israel: the very Son of God, Himself.
His having died for their sins is built into that.
But that He was THEIR Christ issue is first.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Right Divider
Body part
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You do not even know me and you say that i am making excuses so that I can continue to sin!
Do you not know that it is a sin to make false accusations against others? You don't seem to be concerned about continuing in that sin.
No.
You simply have very poor comprehension.
Fact is I hold and often assert there was one gospel of Christ even back then.
One aspect of which was Prophesied, and one aspect of which was a Mystery until Paul.
One aspect of which concerned Israel - the issue that He was their Prophesied Christ - the Son of God: the King of Israel.
THEY were required to believe that aspect of the gospel of Christ.
WE are not.
The other aspect of which concerns all - that He died for our sins.
This other aspect of the gospel of Christ was the issue on the table AFTER God sealed the Believing Remnant of Israel, and concluded the rest under sin, with the Gentiles.
The MAD I hold to as to this, holds to one gospel of Christ - two aspects.
One ASPECT was Prophesied, the other ASPECT was a Mystery...until Paul.
Make of it what you will.
THIS...
Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Is NOT this...
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Right Divider
Body part
All of the anti-grace folks do that. It's a shame.
dodge
New member
You are correct and I did NOT express myself the way I meant to. What I was trying to convey that if someone was on the line and thinking it is OK to sin it appears a case is being made by some that sin is OK and no big deal.
The point of the OP is what one is "willing" to do is it not ? Lets assume a person is a practicing occultist who likes the occult but ask can he be saved and not "willing" to give that sin up to be saved. Do you or anyone believe a person not "willing" to leave that sin can and will be saved by the Lord ?
I am sorry I did not word my thought better , and I apologize. Sorry.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, the subject is if "works" are necessary to be saved. And the Scriptures reveal that salvation is by faith alone.
Apology accepted.
dodge
New member
Maybe you did not read the poll you voted in. Here is the copy and paste of the question.
Poll: Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved?
That is an entirely different animal than salvation by grace through faith.
I believe that no one can earn or add to the salvation that Jesus provides, but when one is not willing to stop sinning how then do you suppose they have humbled themselves to God and are ready to confess their sin and then live for and by God ?
Thanks.
Sin is a big deal, but it's not evidence of a lack of saving faith. Galatians 2:17 (KJV)