ECT Ps 89: too much about Christ to be about David

[Jerry Shugart]

Christ returns in the Heavenly City which is Zion.

No, He will return to the present earth, and not a new earth. His disciples asked Him what would be the sign of His coming and these answers of His demonstrate that He was speaking about coming to the present earth:

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left"(Mt.24:37-41).​

This is obviously not the Heavenly City but instead it is the present earth. And here the Lord Jesus speaks of the same coming and when He comes He will sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Your eschatology has no place for the Lord Jesus to sit upon an earthly throne in the future so you will do your best to pervert the plain meaning of these verses.

So sad!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No, He will return to the present earth, and not a new earth. His disciples asked Him what would be the sign of His coming and these answers of His demonstrate that He was speaking about coming to the present earth:

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left"(Mt.24:37-41).​

This is obviously not the Heavenly City but instead it is the present earth. And here the Lord Jesus speaks of the same coming and when He comes He will sit upon His throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Your eschatology has no place for the Lord Jesus to sit upon an earthly throne in the future so you will do your best to pervert the plain meaning of these verses.

So sad!

No.

The description of Christs return and His reign over the nations with His saints is given in that of the coming down of Jesus from Heaven in the Glory of His Father and the Holy Angels and the immediate resurrection of all His saints into the air to be evermore be with the Lord. There is no returning to Heaven mentioned.

(Disregard Rev.ch 21:1 as it refers to after the last judgment of Rev.ch 20.)

Rev.chs 21-22 speaks of the Kingdom rule over the nations from the Heavenly Jerusalem--

NOT from an earthly throne of David

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


David along with Abraham, Elijah etc. all reign with Christ from this Holy City.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

LA

 

[marhig]

No.

The description of Christs return and His reign over the nations with His saints is given in that of the coming down of Jesus from Heaven in the Glory of His Father and the Holy Angels and the immediate resurrection of all His saints into the air to be evermore be with the Lord. There is no returning to Heaven mentioned.

(Disregard Rev.ch 21:1 as it refers to after the last judgment of Rev.ch 20.)

Rev.chs 21-22 speaks of the Kingdom rule over the nations from the Heavenly Jerusalem--

NOT from an earthly throne of David

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


David along with Abraham, Elijah etc. all reign with Christ from this Holy City.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

LA

Hi, can you see the spiritual in this?

Do you and others here know that this has a deeper meaning?

For instance, theres this above

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal

Then there's this in John 7

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I've showed you these because it's in the Bible. But of that wasn't in John 7 people would just see the natural. All of those verses have a deeper meaning, do you and others know that? I'm just wondering how others believe?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Hi, can you see the spiritual in this?

Do you and others here know that this has a deeper meaning?

If you mean a spiritual parallel for now then yes.

You have to be careful what you say here.

LA

 

[marhig]

If you mean a spiritual parallel for now then yes.

You have to be careful what you say here.

LA

Yes, I'm not going too say much here as what we say spiritually gets pulled to pieces, but I've showed you what I mean in my last post, I've edited it, it's just that everyone speaks of the natural but they don't seem to see that God is spirit and speaks in spirit.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Hi, can you see the spiritual in this?

Do you and others here know that this has a deeper meaning?

For instance, theres this above

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal

Then there's this in John 7

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I've showed you these because it's in the Bible. But of that wasn't in John 7 people would just see the natural. All of those verses have a deeper meaning, do you and others know that? I'm just wondering how others believe?

Well, the prophecies in Ezekiel are referring to a spiritual river for sure.

The greater Pentecostal pouring out is still future as Rev.ch 22 shows.

Christ made men to be fishers of men, not great fishermen in the rivers.

LA

 

[marhig]

Well, the prophecies in Ezekiel are referring to a spiritual river for sure.

The greater Pentecostal pouring out is still future as Rev.ch 22 shows.

Christ made men to be fishers of men, not great fishermen in the rivers.

LA

We fish by the river flowing through us, which is the holy spirit. I do see those verses very differently to many here, I don't see it as natural. And Jesus has already returned, in that generation, just like he said he would. In his apostles first, and his disciples, and he's still returning in his people now. He's already back and living in the new earth which is us, born anew.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

We fish by the river flowing through us, which is the holy spirit. I do see those verses very differently to many here, I don't see it as natural. And Jesus has already returned, in that generation, just like he said he would. In his apostles first, and his disciples, and he's still returning in his people now. He's already back and living in the new earth which is us, born anew.

Yes and no.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

Well, the prophecies in Ezekiel are referring to a spiritual river for sure.

The greater Pentecostal pouring out is still future as Rev.ch 22 shows.

Christ made men to be fishers of men, not great fishermen in the rivers.

LA

Rev 22??? The outpouring???

The OT passages about the outpouring all happen with Messiah present. It was the launch of the mission to the nations.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No.

Do you really think that this "coming" here of the Lord Jesus is coming to the heavenly city?:

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:37-41).​

Anyone in their right mind knows that this coming is not to the heavenly city but instead it is a coming of the Lord Jesus to the present earth. And the following verse is describing the same exact coming of the Lord Jesus:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Since your eschatology has no place for the Lord Jesus ruling on the earth in the future you have been able to trick your mind into believing the most ridiculous thing--that Matthew 24:37-41 is speaking about the Lord Jesus coming to the heavenly city.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Do you really think that this "coming" here of the Lord Jesus is coming to the heavenly city?:

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:37-41).​

Anyone in their right mind knows that this coming is not to the heavenly city but instead it is a coming of the Lord Jesus to the present earth. And the following verse is describing the same exact coming of the Lord Jesus:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Since your eschatology has no place for the Lord Jesus ruling on the earth in the future you have been able to trick your mind into believing the most ridiculous thing--that Matthew 24:37-41 is speaking about the Lord Jesus coming to the heavenly city.

Jesus comes IN the Heavenly City.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Rev 22??? The outpouring???

The OT passages about the outpouring all happen with Messiah present. It was the launch of the mission to the nations.

A greater out pouring is yet to occur--

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
Zep 3:10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
Zep 3:11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
Zep 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
Zep 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Zep 3:16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
Zep 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
Zep 3:18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

A greater out pouring is yet to occur--

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
Zep 3:10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
Zep 3:11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
Zep 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
Zep 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
Zep 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Zep 3:16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
Zep 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
Zep 3:18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.

LA

LA, we are jumping too many tracks here. I was looking for Rev 22 to show an outpouring of the SPIRIT. I do not see that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus comes IN the Heavenly City.

Do you really think that this is referring to the heavenly city:

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:37-41).​

According to your ideas in the heavenly city there will people working in the fields and people grinding in the mills!

Besides that, if you are right then there will be many unsaved people in the heavenly city and they will be taken from that city.

If you actually believe this nonsense then you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If you actually believe this nonsense then you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!

Well, LA believes that Acts 2:38 is the gospel for today, so it's no wonder he has other crazy ideas.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ps 89: too much about Christ to be about David

The following is speaking about David and not about the Lord Jesus:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

We can see that the Lord told Nathan to tell David these promises:

"And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, Go and tell my servant David...I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:5, 12-16).​

Nathan told David these promises and it is ridiculous to argue that he told the Lord Jesus these promises because the Lord Jesus was not even on the earth at that time. So the promises of the Lord were made to David and not the Lord Jesus.

So in Psalm 89 the reference is to David and not the Lord Jesus.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

LA, we are jumping too many tracks here. I was looking for Rev 22 to show an outpouring of the SPIRIT. I do not see that.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
Psa 72:6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
Psa 72:7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
Psa 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The following is speaking about David and not about the Lord Jesus:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

We can see that the Lord told Nathan to tell David these promises:

"And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, Go and tell my servant David...I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:5, 12-16).​

Nathan told David these promises and it is ridiculous to argue that he told the Lord Jesus these promises because the Lord Jesus was not even on the earth at that time. So the promises of the Lord were made to David and not the Lord Jesus.

So in Psalm 89 the reference is to David and not the Lord Jesus.

A bit busy now but the God told David he would not build His house because he had shed too much blood.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

Jerry,
you don't have authority over the NT. Did you just realize this? It quotes Ps 89 and it tells me what to think.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A bit busy now but the God told David he would not build His house because he had shed too much blood.

The promise to David was that his seed would build the LORD's house:

"And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, Go and tell my servant David...I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:5, 12-16).​

And that truth is confirmed by David here:

"And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel. And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father" (1 Chron.5:6).​