ECT Peter, Paul, and Division

SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
The catholic church and all bazillion of the other denominations would go out of business if they would accept this:

Peter preached receiving the atonement at the second coming
Paul preached receiving the atonement at the time of belief of his gospel

There would be nothing left to argue about on TOL, and we could all get on with the ministry of reconciliation.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
1, What demonstrates the Petrine part?

2, Some Brethren in the 1800s tried to invent a doctrine that would solve Protestant-Catholic friction and they gave us D'ism. No thanks.

3, I think only the Catholic thing would get solved by a Petrine view, if there is such a thing. Not a bazillion denominations though. They have all confused 'grace in us' with 'grace for us in Christ' and there are a bazillion versions of 'grace in us.' If you can find the essay "Pentecostalism, Protestant Revivalism, and the Drift Back To Rome" from the Present Truth / Verdict guys from Australia back in the 70s.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
SaulToPaul said:
The catholic church and all bazillion of the other denominations would go out of business if they would accept this:

Peter preached receiving the atonement at the second coming
Paul preached receiving the atonement at the time of belief of his gospel

There would be nothing left to argue about on TOL, and we could all get on with the ministry of reconciliation.
Click to expand...

The atonement came at the second coming (70AD)

Paul preached it:

(Rom 13:11) And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Prior to 70AD, believers were sealed until that day.

Post 70AD (believers today) receive the atonement at the time of belief.

It's really that simple.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
tetelestai said:
The atonement came at the second coming (70AD)

Paul preached it:

(Rom 13:11) And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Prior to 70AD, believers were sealed until that day.

Post 70AD (believers today) receive the atonement at the time of belief.

It's really that simple.
Click to expand...

Romans 6, before 70ad.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
SaulToPaul said:
Romans 6, before 70ad.
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Romans 6 is about being dead to sin and alive in Christ.

Nothing about atonement.

The atonement didn't happen until 70AD.

Both Peter and Paul used the phrase "shall be saved"

(Rom 10:13 KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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SaulToPaul said:
:chuckle:
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(Phil 4:3 KJV) And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

If you understood the 40 Days of Teshuvah, you would know what Paul was talking about in Phil 4:3, and you would understand that there was not atonement until 70AD.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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SaulToPaul said:
:chuckle:

Sins were blotted out for the Body of Christ before 70ad.
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No they weren't.

Nowhere does the Apostle Paul, or anyone say they were.

Paul says the exact opposite, as does Peter.

Paul told his audience they were sealed until the Day of Redemption.

Peter told his audience that they (the Jews) would be saved the same way as the Gentiles.

(Acts 15:11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

As we see above, Peter makes it clear that both Jews and Gentiles "shall be saved" the same way.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
SaulToPaul said:
:chuckle:

Col 2
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Nothing in Col 2 that supports your claim.

When Col 2 was written, Christ Jesus had not yet applied His blood to the mercy seat in the Most Holy of Holies (which is in heaven), and He had not come back out of heaven separated from sin, to announce the clean slate, which took place on the Day of Atonement.

Why was Paul's "fellowlabourers" names written in the Book of Life?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
tetelestai said:
No they weren't.

Nowhere does the Apostle Paul, or anyone say they were.

Paul says the exact opposite, as does Peter.

Paul told his audience they were sealed until the Day of Redemption.

Peter told his audience that they (the Jews) would be saved the same way as the Gentiles.

(Acts 15:11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

As we see above, Peter makes it clear that both Jews and Gentiles "shall be saved" the same way.
Click to expand...


NOnsense Tet, there a many uses of justification in the past tense. It is the major part of what Paul means by 'saved.' Waste of time.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
tetelestai said:
Nothing in Col 2 that supports your claim.

When Col 2 was written, Christ Jesus had not yet applied His blood to the mercy seat in the Most Holy of Holies (which is in heaven), and He had not come back out of heaven separated from sin, to announce the clean slate, which took place on the Day of Atonement.

Why was Paul's "fellowlabourers" names written in the Book of Life?
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Pointless assertions. I didn't know you dwelt on such. When was the Day of Atonement that you seem to have the inside knowledge about?

Hebrews expects the burning of the land of Israel; it has a lot to say about Christ's day of atonement, right?

How about the public demonstration of the propitiation of sins in Christ, in Rom 3?
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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Interplanner said:
When was the Day of Atonement that you seem to have the inside knowledge about?
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The Day of Atonement was fulfilled in 70AD. (As was Trumpets and Tabernacles)

If you disagree, then tell us when Christ Jesus fulfilled the three fall feasts?
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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Interplanner said:
NOnsense Tet, there a many uses of justification in the past tense. It is the major part of what Paul means by 'saved.' Waste of time.
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They were saved because their sins had been paid for at the cross.

However, their salvation wasn't complete until Christ Jesus returned a second time (happened in 70AD)

(Heb 9:28) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

It is different for believers today. Believers today don't have to wait for Christ Jesus to return in order to bring salvation.

Believers who were alive in 70AD, were changed "in the twinkling of an eye", when Christ Jesus returned.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
What a strange dilemma. One the one hand, I agree with Tet that the day of atonement is fulfilled at the Second Coming. On the other hand, it is obvious in Paul's letters that members of The Body had their sins blotted out already (part of the mystery)
 
D

Danoh

New member
steko said:
It just gets curiouser and curiouser! :idunno:
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Of course, there is the standard view within Mid-Acts in general - that both the Little Flock and the Body had the atonement and that it is Israel as one nation whose atonement is yet future (after the purging out of their rebels).

Jerry Shugart (may he be well) was ever pestering other MADs on here with this view.

A view which, though I myself hold to; I had publicly informed him I would ever refuse to support him in, because it was clear to me that all he'd ever wanted was to lord his views on others.

He was MAD's version of a certain ever anti-Darby ranting clown on TOL.
 
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