OSAS

[IMJerusha]

I haven't done either and you left the last conversation on the point. If you like I'll pull it up and repost the relevant part.

Yes, you most definitely have as I have explained. I left nothing of yours unanswered. There's only so much repetition one can muster before the whole exercise becomes tiresome and useless.

 

[IMJerusha]

Me too.

There's contention and then there's earnest contention ie. Jude 3.

 

[Town Heretic]

You added a bit so I'll revisit my answer.

Please don't put words in my mouth or flat out lie about me.

Haven't done either.

Here's your heresy for all the smoke:

The Son has God-ship by virtue of His Father only. You're putting forth a twisted version of the doctrine of the Trinity. One that Yeshua would not and did not support.

Jesus not as fully God and eternal but as a creation of some conferred authority, "by virtue". No, by nature. He is God, as is the Father, as is the Holy Spirit.

That's the orthodoxy upon which Christendom rests. And that's why you're a heretic.

To sum: "The Council of Nicea took place in AD 325 by order of the Roman Emperor Caesar Flavius Constantine. Nicea was located in Asia Minor, east of Constantinople. At the Council of Nicea, Emperor Constantine presided over a group of church bishops and other leaders with the purpose of defining the nature of God for all of Christianity and eliminating confusion, controversy, and contention within the church. The Council of Nicea overwhelmingly affirmed the deity and eternality of Jesus Christ and defined the relationship between the Father and the Son as “of one substance.” It also affirmed the Trinity—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were listed as three co-equal and co-eternal Persons."

 

[IMJerusha]

You added a bit so I'll revisit my answer.

Haven't done either.

Here's your heresy for all the smoke:

Jesus not as fully God and eternal but as a creation of some conferred authority, "by virtue". No, by nature. He is God, as is the Father, as is the Holy Spirit.

That's the orthodoxy upon which Christendom rests. And that's why you're a heretic.

To sum: "The Council of Nicea took place in AD 325 by order of the Roman Emperor Caesar Flavius Constantine. Nicea was located in Asia Minor, east of Constantinople. At the Council of Nicea, Emperor Constantine presided over a group of church bishops and other leaders with the purpose of defining the nature of God for all of Christianity and eliminating confusion, controversy, and contention within the church. The Council of Nicea overwhelmingly affirmed the deity and eternality of Jesus Christ and defined the relationship between the Father and the Son as “of one substance.” It also affirmed the Trinity—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were listed as three co-equal and co-eternal Persons."

Yeah, everyone should learn about the nature of God from GotQuestions.org :chuckle:
So by your account, Yeshua's Words are heresy? I don't think so.
You haven't paid much attention to the words of the Nicene Creed either, have you? You can't make it mean what it doesn't. And "as a creation of some conferred authority" is definitely putting words in my mouth although the Nicene Creed states that Yeshua is begotten of the Father and Yeshua did say "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

 

[freelight]

compound God-speak...........

compound God-speak...........

~*~*~

Uh oh,...looks like another Trinity conspiracy :juggle:

I'm so over it....but the historicial-metaphysical-philosophical aspects of its 'conception' are wonderful. As we've gone over many times,....a Unitarian, Trinitarian or any other 'arian' view is just fine (there are different points of view and preferences), as long as the religious ethic, principles and values are fundamental to reality, beneficial to one's well being and of service in time and eternity. - all else is just so much verbiage, metaphysical gymnastics, concepts and speculations. God IS (the origin and totality of all actual and potential reality). - this is good enough for starters.

I think IMJerusha mentioned that the Father is NOT the Son,...of course orthodox Trinitarianism assumes the same thing, with the added 'clause' that they are still one 'God' nonetheless, one 'essence', but then we go down the ole path of defining 'terms', which could open us up into sundry paths down the road to heresy.

If we hold to a true monotheism or even a 'monism' (to stretch our spiritual vision further),..there is 'One Deity', one universal God-head (original fount, Monad, etc.)...from which all else springs. Even most of us liberal spiritualists, maverick philosophers, believe something similar,...that 'God is One' (with many creative forms). You can conceptualize or put your formula in a creed if you like, but you still cannot wholly define, contain of even know 'The Absolute' which is beyond all relative knowledge, let alone finite comprehension....to which the orthodox conception of the Trinity remains a 'divine mystery', beyond what can be intellectually arranged or coordinated, but those descriptions are still a 'construct'.

 

[freelight]

Yeah, everyone should learn about the nature of God from GotQuestions.org :chuckle:

You've got to be kidding.

So by your account, Yeshua's Words are heresy? I don't think so.
You haven't paid much attention to the words of the Nicene Creed either, have you? You can't make it mean what it doesn't. And "as a creation of some conferred authority" is definitely putting words in my mouth although the Nicene Creed states that Yeshua is begotten of the Father.

The whole 'shebang' about Jesus being "eternally begotten" was a creation-phrase of course to not put Jesus at a point in time where he actually was begotten,....lest Jesus actually have a beginning (to keep Arianism at bay). However,...if something is 'begotten',...it has a generation at some point in time, or even if it is some kind of 'eternal generation'.....that 'generation' still has an original generator which is God the Father. The Father maintains priority and primacy.

 

[Town Heretic]

Yeah, everyone should learn about the nature of God from GotQuestions.org :chuckle:

I thought it did a decent job summing for layman. I can parallel it through any number of orthodox citations if you like.

So by your account, Yeshua's Words are heresy?

No and not by the councils who ruled on your apparent heresy either.

I don't think so.

I agree.

You haven't paid much attention to the words of the Nicene Creed either, have you?

The foundation being false the "either" can only be more of the same.

You can't make it mean what it doesn't. And "as a creation of some conferred authority" is definitely putting words in my mouth although the Nicene Creed states that Yeshua is begotten of the Father and Yeshua did say "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

I didn't put words in your mouth. I literally quoted you. And I put forth in that other thread a simple, unadorned posit: Jesus is God, as the Father is God, as the Holy Spirit is God. They are coeternal and equal.

You said "by virtue" and I responded "by nature". Or, Jesus is God, as fully as the Father is God, as fully as the Holy Spirit is God. If you can't say that then you're just another game playing heretic. If not, you've played another sort of game to no purpose and should speak to it plainly.

 

[Town Heretic]

You've got to be kidding.

Given some of what you must take for source material that's a funny bit of snobbery. Else, explained prior and the only amusing part is her googling it and trying to make hay with it.

The whole 'shebang' about Jesus being "eternally begotten" was a creation-phrase of course to not put Jesus at a point in time where he actually was begotten,....lest Jesus actually have a beginning (to keep Arianism at bay). However,...if something is 'begotten',...it has a generation at some point in time, or even if it is some kind of 'eternal generation'.....that 'generation' still has an original generator which is God the Father. The Father maintains priority and primacy.

Jesus had a beginning in the flesh. That doesn't contradict his eternality, unless you made the posit that he was eternally in the flesh, which no one is.

 

[Town Heretic]

The dogma of the Trinity

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. Catholic Encylopedia, New Advent

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God). Catholic Answers

Just to start the ball rolling.

 

[IMJerusha]

You've got to be kidding.

:idunno: Pretty sure that's where he got it.

The whole 'shebang' about Jesus being "eternally begotten" was a creation-phrase of course to not put Jesus at a point in time where he actually was begotten,....lest Jesus actually have a beginning (to keep Arianism at bay). However,...if something is 'begotten',...it has a generation at some point in time, or even if it is some kind of 'eternal generation'.....that 'generation' still has an original generator which is God the Father. The Father maintains priority and primacy.

Scripture tells us to seek God's Grace and His Mercy through His Son Yeshua. The orthodoxy upon which Christendom rests is Yeshua (as opposed to Constantine and his merry band of bishops) and what makes one a heretic is stepping outside of Yeshua. The word "begotten" was a translation of the Greek meaning Unique One/Only One of the Father. We know from Scripture that Yeshua was with God at the beginning of all things and all things were created through Him. I suppose it's normal from our understanding of procreation to assume that there was a point of generation, a time when Yeshua may not have existed, but we really are clueless about that. It's clear that Yeshua held/holds His Father in priority.

 

[freelight]

Trinity logics...........

Trinity logics...........

Given some of what you must take for source material that's a funny bit of snobbery. Else, explained prior and the only amusing part is her googling it and trying to make hay with it.

I've been to that site, and have gotten a flavor of its 'apologetic' salad (same ole dressing). The resources I share are pertinent to the subject I expound on and therefore significant to the data being shared

Jesus had a beginning in the flesh. That doesn't contradict his eternality, unless you made the posit that he was eternally in the flesh, which no one is.

I agree for the most part,...its just the terms created in the creeds like Jesus being "eternally begotten" that are clearly 'doctored' to battle against various heresies (perceived by the so called 'orthodox') like Arianism and other schools. I don't see a logical or dogmatic reason to assume Anthanasius's description of the Trinity neither the creeds CLAIM that any who does not believe every word of it cannot be saved. That's what I see as ridiculous. Snippets below

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.


-Anthanasian Creed

Btw,.....the Urantia Papers description of the Paradise Trinity (Audio-video here) is cosmically more vast and comprehensive than a more narrow orthodox concept of the Trinity, - the papers do however note that some truth of a 'tri-une' constitution of the Godhead was 'intuited' hence it being formulated, but the papers present a more correct conception of it, according to its revelators

 

[freelight]

Just to start the ball rolling.

I hear ya TH, but isn't there other Trinity threads that this discussion could be continued on? or a new one? Like we need another one? Its been hashed. - not sure if this relates to OSAS :idunno:

 

[IMJerusha]

Given some of what you must take for source material that's a funny bit of snobbery. Else, explained prior and the only amusing part is her googling it and trying to make hay with it.

Good grief, how much more snobbery-ish can one get than to claim that the doctrine of the Trinity, Constantine and the Nicene Creed is the do all and be all of Christianity?!

Jesus had a beginning in the flesh. That doesn't contradict his eternality, unless you made the posit that he was eternally in the flesh, which no one is.

Who has contradicted Yeshua's eternality?

 

[IMJerusha]

I hear ya TH, but isn't there other Trinity threads that this discussion could be continued on? or a new one? Like we need another one? Its been hashed. - not sure if this relates to OSAS :idunno:

I was just going to post the same thing.

 

[IMJerusha]

I thought it did a decent job summing for layman. I can parallel it through any number of orthodox citations if you like.

No doubt.

No and not by the councils who ruled on your apparent heresy either.

What heresy? You know, for someone who prides themselves on the understanding and usage of the English language, you're coming up a bit doltz.

I agree.

With Yeshua or with Constantine?

The foundation being false the "either" can only be more of the same.

Make up your mind; you're either for Him or against Him. The foundation is Yeshua.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I literally quoted you.

:chuckle: Yes, you did but the quote is not what I was referring to.

And I put forth in that other thread a simple, unadorned posit: Jesus is God, as the Father is God, as the Holy Spirit is God. They are coeternal and equal.

Where in Scripture does Yeshua state that He is equal to His Father? He states that He is One with His Father; that He is in His Father as His Father is in Him.

You said "by virtue"

No, Yeshua stated that. John 5:19, John 5:30

and I responded "by nature". Or, Jesus is God, as fully as the Father is God, as fully as the Holy Spirit is God. If you can't say that then you're just another game playing heretic. If not, you've played another sort of game to no purpose and should speak to it plainly.

You responded outside of your league, Town, with man's understanding of God and you along with a whole lot of others demand that everyone maintain that understanding in order to be considered Christian. All those poor pre-Nicene Christians just never had a chance! You're such a hoot!

 

[glorydaz]

No doubt.



What heresy? You know, for someone who prides themselves on the understanding and usage of the English language, you're coming up a bit doltz.



With Yeshua or with Constantine?



Make up your mind; you're either for Him or against Him. The foundation is Yeshua.



:chuckle: Yes, you did but the quote is not what I was referring to.



Where in Scripture does Yeshua state that He is equal to His Father? He states that He is One with His Father; that He is in His Father as His Father is in Him.



No, Yeshua stated that. John 5:19, John 5:30



You responded outside of your league, Town, with man's understanding of God and you along with a whole lot of others demand that everyone maintain that understanding in order to be considered Christian. All those poor pre-Nicene Christians just never had a chance! You're such a hoot!

When will she ever learn? :idunno:

 

[Town Heretic]

Make up your mind; you're either for Him or against Him. The foundation is Yeshua.

If you're going to question anyone else's reading comprehension you'll need to do a little better with this sort of thing. lain:

Where in Scripture does Yeshua state that He is equal to His Father?

Right next to the part where he explains the Trinity. If you're interested in the foundation of the Church Fathers and the orthodoxy I can recommend a few things. Else, thanks for underscoring your heresy, again.

You responded outside of your league, Town, with man's understanding of God

What do you think you are, an angel? Silly wanna be rabbi, tricks are for kids.

and you along with a whole lot of others demand that everyone maintain that understanding in order to be considered Christian.

Just noting what the Pharisees, hard hearted as they were, still understood about Christ and what you still don't appear to, sadly.

When will she ever learn? :idunno:

I wouldn't buy stock if it was a company, but you never know. Maybe one of these.

 

[Town Heretic]

Continuing the illustration of orthodox unity on the point:

The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being. -- Southern Baptist Convention

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. -- United Methodist Church

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God). Catholic Answers


242 Following this apostolic tradition, the Church confessed at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea (325) that the Son is "consubstantial" with the Father, that is, one only God with him.66 The second ecumenical council, held at Constantinople in 381, kept this expression in its formulation of the Nicene Creed and confessed "the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father".67

245...The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature. -- Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church

There is one essence of God...The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God--but they are one God.

Christ is the incarnation of God on earth—fully human and fully God. -- Presbyterian Church (USA)

We teach that the one true God. is the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, three distinct persons, but of one and the same divine essence, equal in power, equal in eternity, equal in majesty, because each person possesses the one divine essence .-- Lutheran Church

The fundamental truth of the Orthodox Church is the faith revealed in the True God: the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. -- Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Or, as religionfacts notes in examining the topic, "There are many differences in doctrine between various mainstream Christian denominations, but the doctrine of the Trinity is not one of them."

Who does differ from orthodoxy? Well, "The doctrine of the trinity distinguishes Christianity from other religions including, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Unitarian Universalism. These groups reject the doctrine..."

A good beginning.

 

[IMJerusha]

If you're going to question anyone else's reading comprehension you'll need to do a little better with this sort of thing. lain:

Will you take it straight from Yeshua?
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30
You want to claim that the foundation of Christianity is the writings and understandings of man as opposed to the Words of God and of Yeshua. That's just messed up. I don't think I can get any more lain: than that!

Right next to the part where he explains the Trinity.

Don't fob me off. Post Yeshua's Word, Town; post where He states that He is the Father or equal to His Father. Do you pray to Yeshua or do you pray to God, the Father in Yeshua's Name? Does Yeshua know the day of His return or is God the Father the only One in the know on that score?

If you're interested in the foundation of the Church Fathers and the orthodoxy I can recommend a few things. Else, thanks for underscoring your heresy, again.

The foundation of the Church Fathers is Yeshua and the orthodoxy of the faith is God the Father, His Son, Yeshua and the Ruach . The Church Fathers knew that...you clearly don't .

What do you think you are, an angel? Silly wanna be rabbi, tricks are for kids.

There is but One Rabbi, Town and the fact that I choose to defer to God's Words through Him as opposed to man's shouldn't be something that you have a problem with.

Just noting what the Pharisees, hard hearted as they were, still understood about Christ and what you still don't appear to, sadly.

No, the Pharisees didn't understand it and once again, you're siding with the thoughts of man. Do you also hold with Talmud? Show me, in Scripture, where Yeshua stated that He is God, the Father. You won't find it. It isn't there.

I wouldn't buy stock if it was a company, but you never know. Maybe one of these.

My desire is that folks take stock in Yeshua and His teaching. If I or anyone point people to Him, as opposed to the teachings of man, why would that be skin off your or Glorydaz' back? Ezekiel 3:20-21

OSAS is not a teaching of Yeshua. OSAS also has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity, Town, and certainly not your twisted version of it.

 

[Town Heretic]

Will you take it straight from Yeshua?

I wasn't disagreeing with Jesus. You missed the mark in your criticism. You might want to read the bit you responded to again...or you might not. Who really knows with you?

You want to claim that the foundation of Christianity is the writings and understandings of man as opposed to the Words of God and of Yeshua.

No, though Christ never literally penned anything that we know of, leaving that to the men who knew and loved him. Paul spoke to a great deal of what Christ/God had to say about Himself. How are you with Paul, I wonder. I know how meshak is...or rather isn't.

Don't fob me off.

lain: Oh, I think you came in pretty much as fobbed off as a person could be and it's been downhill ever since.

I've also posted a bit of corroboration in relation to your odd notion that I'm reading in something new. If you look at my last you'll see the orthodoxy of Christendom on display, from its earliest incarnation to the agreement of newer, vital branches of the Christian faith.

What are you, JW?

Post Yeshua's Word, Town; post where He states that He is the Father or equal to His Father. Do you pray to Yeshua or do you pray to God, the Father in Yeshua's Name?

You're confused on the roles vs nature business. It happens. Again, I can refer you to the orthodoxy, complete with scriptural support. When I pray to God I'm speaking to God. That's the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They're one, so this isn't you vs me, it's you vs the overwhelming belief of Christendom and scripture as read by it and examined by the Church Fathers.

No, the Pharisees didn't understand it

So you say. But they rightly knew that only God can forgive sin, which is one thing they would hold and use against Jesus.

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” John 10:33​

20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Luke 5:20,21​

As to what Jesus said of himself:

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[a] going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59​

Show me, in Scripture, where Yeshua stated that He is God, the Father. You won't find it. It isn't there.

No one has said Jesus called himself the Father. No one has said he called himself the Holy Spirit. So that's deceptive of you, your ongoing attempt that wraps itself around an assumption that the Father and Son and Spirit aren't coeternal and of one substance, literally one being in three persons.

My desire is that folks take stock in Yeshua and His teaching. If I or anyone point people to Him, as opposed to the teachings of man, why would that be skin off your or Glorydaz' back?

If you preach another gospel you're to be opposed, because you lead men to sin and to death. It isn't my salvation I'm concerned over.

OSAS is not a teaching of Yeshua. OSAS also has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity, Town.

I don't recall tying them together, except that I've spoken about the latter in a thread ostensibly about the former, though I've spoken to that too. I don't care if you agree with me about OSAS, though some will take issue with me on it, argue that if you don't believe in assurance then you believe in the work you do, in some sense, to save you. If that's the case then you're following another false gospel.

My understanding on the point is that anyone who believes their salvation secure seeks God and His pleasure not from obedience in fear of punishment but out of gratitude and a love for the root of their own unmerited salvation and in hope that God will use their witness to draw others to Him. That Him being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.