Open Closure

[Tambora]

Tambora, I can honestly say that you are the first MAD that I have heard that says that the words of Jesus are for MADS too.

Well, once again, that is not what I said.
Why do you folks keep leaving out SOME, even after I have repeatedly pointed that out.
That one word changes the whole meaning.

If you are going to argue with what I say, then argue with what I actually say, and not what you say.

I've only ever heard them say that Jesus preached the kingdom gospel for the Jews, and Paul preached the grace gospel for the gentiles and thats what the MADS follow.

MAD recognize the difference between the mystery that was not revealed in the prophets and prophecy that was revealed in the prophets.


Acts 3:21 KJV
(21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.



Romans 16:25 KJV
(25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


Things that differ are not the same.

I have never heard another MAD say what you have been saying regarding Jesus.

It will be good to hear them say that they agree with you.

I believe you have seen it, but didn't take notice.

And BTW, not everything that has been asked me is about MAD doctrine and must be limited to their own personal viewpoint.
For instance we have MADs here at TOL that do not all agree on the Open View vs. the Settled View.
It has nothing to do with MAD doctrine, it's an individual viewpoint.
Steko, of which I hold almost all the views he does except a couple such as whether the last supper was the Passover meal or not.
It has nothing to do with MAD doctrine, it's an individual viewpoint.
Some will call the Son, Jesus, some Yeshua, some the Lord Jesus Christ.
It has nothing to do with MAD doctrine, it's an individual viewpoint.

MAD doctrine is basically the difference between prophecy revealed and the mystery revealed.
For instance there is no prophecy that says that the Gentiles will be given grace due to Israel's fall.
There are plenty of prophecies about the Gentiles given grace due to Israels exaltation.

But Paul reveals a mystery kept secret that was not in the prophets.

From the revelation of the prophets:

Isaiah 60:3 KJV​

(3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.​

From Paul's revelation of the mystery.

Romans 11:11 KJV​

(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.​

Something different going on here.

 

[Tambora]

1 Timothy 3

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I'm sorry, but how does not telling anyone that Jesus is the Christ supposed to be profitable for doctrine? Which doctrine would that be? What reproof would that be? What instruction of righteousness would that be?

But it certainly does show that things that differ are not the same.
So BINGO on that!

 

[marhig]

We should do everything Jesus tells us to do.

If one is guided by reading the Bible alone then one is not walking with the Lord to be able to hear His voice.

MADS accuse those who do hear His voice as being false prophets.

That is what MAD teaches.

LA

Yes, if we walk in the Spirit, then we are taught within. And the spirit teaches us, guides us and shows us what's right and wrong on our lives and guides us to do right in whatever we come across each day.

If we are born of God, and do his will, then we will be alive in God and we will hear Christ.

 

[Tambora]

they are just nitpicking game with you now.

Correcting you error is not nitpicking.
But we are well aware of how you cry foul and victim when you are rightly corrected and keep telling the same lie over and over.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes, if we walk in the Spirit, then we are taught within. And the spirit teaches us, guides us and shows us what's right and wrong on our lives and guides us to do right in whatever we come across each day.

If we are born of God, and do his will, then we will be alive in God and we will hear Christ.

Yes,

however MAD teaches the new covenant is not now in force, so how can the Lord guide them from within?

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[daqq]

You never correct Grosnick on those points.

Rather you back him up with all of his uncaring unloving evil snide comments.



LA

Or "saint," John w for that matter, and his mouth is far from Christ!

Yep, and John W doesn't call them children of the devil or satanic when they disagree either. It's called showing respect to the persons of men. The publicans and heathen did the same; they only love each other and only when it is for their own gain or reward. When one of their own comes out, and says he or she doesn't think MADism is right for them any more, the clan turns on that person like a pack of rabid wolverines. What can be said of a group that will devour its own or its unstable young? :dead:

:deadhorse:

 

[Tambora]

Where did I say that MADists don't help or care about others?

I'm not even sure why you brought that up to begin with.
It has nothing to do with MAD doctrine.

 

[marhig]

Well, once again, that is not what I said.
Why do you folks keep leaving out SOME, even after I have repeatedly pointed that out.
That one word changes the whole meaning.

If you are going to argue with what I say, then argue with what I actually say, and not what you say.



MAD recognize the difference between the mystery that was not revealed in the prophets and prophecy that was revealed in the prophets.


Acts 3:21 KJV
(21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.



Romans 16:25 KJV
(25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


Things that differ are not the same.

I believe you have seen it, but didn't take notice.

And BTW, not everything that has been asked me is about MAD doctrine and must be limited to their own personal viewpoint.
For instance we have MADs here at TOL that do not all agree on the Open View vs. the Settled View.
It has nothing to do with MAD doctrine, it's an individual viewpoint.
Steko, of which I hold almost all the views he does except a couple such as whether the last supper was the Passover meal or not.
It has nothing to do with MAD doctrine, it's an individual viewpoint.
Some will call the Son, Jesus, some Yeshua, some the Lord Jesus Christ.
It has nothing to do with MAD doctrine, it's an individual viewpoint.

MAD doctrine is basically the difference between prophecy revealed and the mystery revealed.
For instance there is no prophecy that says that the Gentiles will be given grace due to Israel's fall.
There are plenty of prophecies about the Gentiles given grace due to Israels exaltation.

But Paul reveals a mystery kept secret that was not in the prophets.

From the revelation of the prophets:

Isaiah 60:3 KJV​

(3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.​

From Paul's revelation of the mystery.

Romans 11:11 KJV​

(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.​

Something different going on here.

I've only got to the first paragraph, I never said some, because you're the first MADist that has said the word some.

All as I have heard on here is that Jesus Christ preached the kingdom gospel to the Jews and that Paul preached the grace gospel to the gentiles which MADS follow.

I've never heard them saying that they obey anything of what Jesus taught only Paul. Your the first MAD that I've heard say that some of Jesus' gospel is for the Jews, because from what I've read, most of the MADS believe that all that Jesus taught was for the Jews and not for the gentiles, and that MADS only follow the grace gospel of Paul.

Maybe they could back you up on this and agree with you, as I've never heard them say this!

 

[Tambora]

When one of their own comes out, and says he or she doesn't think MADism is right for them any more, the clan turns on that person

Another blatant lie.
I have friends right here at TOL that are not MADs and we get along just fine.

You MAD haters are really showing your fangs now.
But that OK. I bite back.
If you think you are going to repeatedly lie about what I think and how I feel, you've definitely got a fight on your hands.
I will not go quietly into the night.
Bring it.

 

[marhig]

I'm not even sure why you brought that up to begin with.
It has nothing to do with MAD doctrine.

Because you said that I should sell all that I have to obey Jesus.

Which brought me onto the rich young ruler who was told to sell all he had and zacchaeus who was also rich and wasn't commanded to sell all he had because his heart was right and the rich young rulers heart was wrong because he loved money!

So I said that I believe the we should share when we see the need. I wasn't saying anything against MAD.

And it's a shame that this has nothing to do with MAD doctrine because it's what Jesus taught!

 

[meshak]

Maybe they could back you up on this and agree with you, as I've never heard them say this!

This I have to see.opcorn:

See how they pull it off.

 

[freelight]

For Jesus sake.......

For Jesus sake.......

I don't deny anything Jesus taught.
However I do recognize that not all of what He taught was for everyone of all time to obey.

I would naturally think you and any sensible person would not,...and as long as LOVE inspires and leads us, we follow that guidance in doing good works and abiding by Jesus teachings on basic universal ethics, morals and religious principles. -the gospel of the kingdom still prevails and is the basic premise or context in which the gospel message is directed in gathering all souls into the kingdom of God, thru the 'new birth' of the Spirit. Paul comes along with his own gospel message with a new dispensational emphasis, but the ethics of true religion, spiritual law, moral principles and divine wisdom holds thru-out. Truth is truth in any language or terminology.

Some differentiate between Jesus and Paul's gospels to the point of them being 'adversarial' or 'contrary' to one another, while others within Christendom reconcile such, such as with MAD and other views. Pick your cherries wisely here. Some messianic followers of Jesus wholly reject Paul and believe he introduced a foreign gospel, and that he is an 'anti-Christ'. So, many different viewpoints abound in the relationship or 'tension-issues' between Jesus and Paul. While I take a more universalist, eclectic approach,...Paul has some hard sayings and a good portion that is merely his own 'opinion' using OT scripture to his own ends and interpretations. His intentions may have been a 'mixed bag' as far as I can see. I take Paul positively only in his teaching of true principles and allegories as they teach spiritual laws and principles, his more gnostic emphasis on 'spiritual knowledge' and 'hidden truths', which he couches in allegorical illustrations. Otherwise, his other personal 'hang-ups', 'boasts' and eccentries are HIS OWN.

My former commentary on Paul then showcases very critical stuff on his gospel from a purely Orthodox or more liberal Jewish perspective, to just seeing him as a spiritual Gnostic putting his own 'spin' on the Jesus-Story, and creating his own seperate religion more or less, quite different from the original apostles of the Lord Jesus in Jerusalem, led by James the Just, Peter and John. While the writer of Acts tries to show Paul in a good light, other places reveal 'tensions' between the original apostles and Paul. We could go on.

Anyways,...the good news of the kingdom HOLDS, the sermon on the mount, beattitudes, etc. Wisdom speaks, and her voice calls out. Some sayings of course may be difficult or seem illogical or obsolete even, and this certainly goes for Paul's letters too, at least on some particulars (well, those agreed on as being his authentic letters as the rest are 'pseudographical'). As a free religionist, you have to make up your own mind on these matters, with a clear intellect and spiritual discernment, and do remember.....all points of view are subject to change - keep researching.....ask, seek and knock. - this instruction is a dynamic verb........

 

[marhig]

Yes,

however MAD teaches the new covenant is not now in force, so how can the Lord guide them from within?

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

I never knew that either! I mean that MADS don't believe that the new covenant is in force. And that the Lord doesn't guide them from within. What do they believe regarding the Holy Spirit within us?

 

[daqq]

Another blatant lie.
I have friends right here at TOL that are not MADs and we get along just fine.

You MAD haters are really showing your fangs now.
But that OK. I bite back.
If you think you are going to repeatedly lie about what I think and how I feel, you've definitely got a fight on your hands.
I will not go quietly into the night.
Bring it.

Another blatant lie: John W is clearly one of your main spokespersons around here and anyone who has run into him knows exactly what it means that you all bow to his venomous words and teachings. Anyone who calls the Gospel of Yeshua a "gospel of Judas" utterly rejects Messiah and is a Judas betrayer himself, (or herself). That filthy spewing you support makes you a spiritual co-fornicator.

 

[meshak]

opcorn:

 

[meshak]

Take a look at the thread of mine about MADs outrageous claim.

 

[meshak]

this is it:

excellent example of MADism:

Jesus' followers' hope and goal: peaceful new earth.

New earth

Psalm 37:29New King James Version (NKJV)

29
The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.

Isaiah 65:17New King James Version (NKJV)

The Glorious New Creation

17
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

2 Peter 3:13New King James Version (NKJV)

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

John 13:34-35New King James Version (NKJV)

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


Psalm 72:7New King James Version (NKJV)
7
In His days the righteous shall flourish,
And abundance of peace,
Until the moon is no more.

Isaiah 2:4New King James Version (NKJV)

4
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Isaiah 32:16-18New King James Version (NKJV)

The Peace of God’s Reign

16
Then justice will dwell in the wilderness,
And righteousness remain in the fruitful field.

17
The work of righteousness will be peace,
And the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever.

18
My people will dwell in a peaceful habitation,
In secure dwellings, and in quiet resting places,

Me:

and this is Steko's reply.
Why would one hijack the promises that GOD made to Israel and apply them to themselves?

And five MADists agree with him:

The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to steko For Your Post:

Grosnick Marowbe (March 13th, 2016),heir (April 20th, 2016),Ktoyou (March 13th, 2016),lifeisgood (March 13th, 2016),patrick jane (March 12th, 2016)

 

[Tambora]

I've only got to the first paragraph, I never said some, because you're the first MADist that has said the word some.

No I'm not.

Your the first MAD that I've heard say that some of Jesus' gospel is for the Jews,

Of Jesus' gospel????
Did that gospel of Jesus include not telling anyone He was the Christ?
Which gospel was that teaching in?

because from what I've read, most of the MADS believe that all that Jesus taught was for the Jews and not for the gentiles,

Honey, "all that Jesus taught" includes what Paul taught of the mystery that was kept secret since the world began until revealed to Paul.
So this statement of yours is also false.
Do ya'll just not take the time to think about what you are saying before you say it?
If you just want to fight with a strawman, go ahead.
Don't ask me to defend your strawman.

and that MADS only follow the grace gospel of Paul.

Which was given to Paul by the ascended Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and told us to follow.

Maybe they could back you up on this and agree with you, as I've never heard them say this!

Then you haven't paid attention.

You do realize that just because you say you haven't heard it doesn't mean it has not been said, right?
Just another bogus excuse used as if it's an argument.
Good grief, and you wonder why we have to repeat things so often AS TO WHAT WE ACTUALLY SAID.
I have no desire to fight your strawmen with you.

If you actually have a question about MAD doctrine, I'll listen.

 

[marhig]

Another blatant lie: John W is clearly one of your main spokespersons around here and anyone who has run into him knows exactly what it means that you all bow to his venomous words and teachings. Anyone who calls the Gospel of Yeshua a "gospel of Judas" utterly rejects Messiah and is a Judas betrayer himself, (or herself). That filthy spewing you support makes you a spiritual co-fornicator.

And I have never seen one MADist tell him that he is wrong, or that he shouldn't speak as he does. They all agree with him and his foul mouth and like many of his posts!

 

[Tambora]

Because you said that I should sell all that I have to obey Jesus.

Are you kidding me?????
I'm the one saying that we don't have to do that command of Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!
For crying out loud, you guys are terrible at debating.

And it's a shame that this has nothing to do with MAD doctrine because it's what Jesus taught!

Tell no one I am the Christ was also taught by Jesus, and it's not MAD doctrine either.
In fact, what doctrine do you even claim that to be in?