North Carolina: Force to Rescind Tranny In Bathroom Bill

[theophilus]

Wonder if Millennials would use an out-house?

 

[rexlunae]

We managed to upgrade from outhouses to indoor plumbing. Can we manage to upgrade to gender-neutral, single-occupancy restrooms?

As an aside, I does irk me when single-stall restrooms are actually labelled by gender. As if somehow being forced to use a restroom where a person of the opposite gender was recently is going to hurt.

But there are certainly contexts in which that would be very difficult. There are many places where remodeling can't be done for a variety of reasons, including space available and preservation of historical buildings. And it shouldn't be necessary. It's not hard to tell the difference between a transwoman and a man, in any context but the very hypothetical. There's this sense, sometimes, when discussing public policy that we should eliminate all ambiguity, but I don't think it actually helps us in this case.

I think that will be the future in new construction and remodels of commercial or multi-use buildings. Even with multi-occupancy gender-specific restrooms, there should be room for an additional single occupancy restroom. That's how they're doing it on my campus, and I see them in stores as well.

That may be, but I think economic factors are going to keep putting pressure on to have multi-user restrooms.

I once went to a restaurant in the Twin Cities which had a mixed-gender restroom. The sinks and hand drying areas were common, and there were (quite private) stalls for actually relieving ones self. It was perfectly reasonable on a rational level, but there was something oddly disconcerting about it. I think there's actually some real benefit in breaking down those artificial barriers. We expect people to behave appropriately when they encounter people of opposite genders everywhere else. The bathroom shouldn't be an exception.

 

[annabenedetti]

As an aside, I does irk me when single-stall restrooms are actually labelled by gender. As if somehow being forced to use a restroom where a person of the opposite gender was recently is going to hurt.

It doesn't bother me to use an non-gendered restroom. I never actually thought about it until your comment above. :chuckle:

In fact, I don't think I've ever considered restrooms in the abstract to the extent that I have in this thread.

But there are certainly contexts in which that would be very difficult. There are many places where remodeling can't be done for a variety of reasons, including space available and preservation of historical buildings. And it shouldn't be necessary. It's not hard to tell the difference between a transwoman and a man, in any context but the very hypothetical. There's this sense, sometimes, when discussing public policy that we should eliminate all ambiguity, but I don't think it actually helps us in this case.

Speaking of eliminating ambiguity, I probably wasn't clear enough, what I meant was when remodeling is already on the planning table because it is possible for that location for whatever reason. Just in the way that remodels accommodate physical accessibility improvements. At least they do here in California, I don't know about everywhere.

That may be, but I think economic factors are going to keep putting pressure on to have multi-user restrooms.

One step stall at a time...

I once went to a restaurant in the Twin Cities which had a mixed-gender restroom. The sinks and hand drying areas were common, and there were (quite private) stalls for actually relieving ones self. It was perfectly reasonable on a rational level, but there was something oddly disconcerting about it. I think there's actually some real benefit in breaking down those artificial barriers. We expect people to behave appropriately when they encounter people of opposite genders everywhere else. The bathroom shouldn't be an exception.

I have to say I've never been in a restroom like that. As a woman, I wouldn't feel safe in it if it wasn't crowded, because expecting someone to behave appropriately won't protect me from being assaulted by someone who has no interest in behaving appropriately. I don't know. Disconcerting is a good word.

 

[kmoney]

I can't imagine the circumstances where this would actually be useful. It seems like a lot of work for something with almost no chance of being put to a legitimate use. Would we actually see people prosecuted for using the wrong restroom? If someone's a predator, they're going to get in trouble for that long before, and for much better reasons than where they decide to relieve themselves.

:idunno: My point is this. If we have gendered bathrooms for a reason and if we're going to change laws so that biological sex doesn't matter anymore then it makes sense to me to have some indicator or way of knowing who should be using what. Otherwise places really have no standing to tell someone they can't go in a particular room. Having said that, I don't know if they do now anyway or if anything happens if someone uses the wrong bathroom.

I don't know why you say it's a lot of work. It's no work at all. Everyone already has an ID and the ID already mentions gender/sex so why shouldn't that identification match what the person actually is or considers themselves? The law would simply use what everyone already has. It might not make a difference, but it isn't work.

 

[kmoney]

We managed to upgrade from outhouses to indoor plumbing. Can we manage to upgrade to gender-neutral, single-occupancy restrooms? I think that will be the future in new construction and remodels of commercial or multi-use buildings. Even with multi-occupancy gender-specific restrooms, there should be room for an additional single occupancy restroom. That's how they're doing it on my campus, and I see them in stores as well.

I can see that working pretty well in low traffic areas but for high traffic it seems less practical.

 

[annabenedetti]

I can see that working pretty well in low traffic areas but for high traffic it seems less practical.

In high traffic areas, provide men's and women's multi-occupancy alongside single-use gender-neutral restrooms.

There are other reasons too why those rooms might be chosen by people whether transgendered or not - women or men with small children, with strollers or with multiple children that they can take in all at once. People using walkers or scooters or who have other mobility problems who would find more space or more privacy helpful.

 

[kmoney]

In high traffic areas, provide men's and women's multi-occupancy alongside single-use gender-neutral restrooms.

There are other reasons too why those rooms might be chosen by people whether transgendered or not - women or men with small children, with strollers or with multiple children that they can take in all at once. People using walkers or scooters or who have other mobility problems who would find more space or more privacy helpful.

All good considerations.

 

[ok doser]

or you could just have a sign up saying "In use by pervert" :idunno:

 

[rexlunae]

:idunno: My point is this. If we have gendered bathrooms for a reason and if we're going to change laws so that biological sex doesn't matter anymore then it makes sense to me to have some indicator or way of knowing who should be using what. Otherwise places really have no standing to tell someone they can't go in a particular room. Having said that, I don't know if they do now anyway or if anything happens if someone uses the wrong bathroom.

For the most part, the laws are being newly passed in the same parts of the country that like to fly the Confederate flag.

I don't know why you say it's a lot of work. It's no work at all.

1. Some people aren't always the same gender even from day to day, especially in the beginnings of a transition.
2. You at least have to go to a government office that may or may not already exist in some form and change the paperwork.
3. Any enforcement is going to involve restroom patrols. Or something.
4. Not everyone has an ID. And not everyone who does carries it. Are we really going to turn people away from restrooms without some sort of paperwork?

Everyone already has an ID and the ID already mentions gender/sex so why shouldn't that identification match what the person actually is or considers themselves? The law would simply use what everyone already has. It might not make a difference, but it isn't work.

Having an ID isn't universal, and isn't a requirement for using a restroom presently. Of course, the paperwork should ideally match reality, we don't reissue ID cards every time it changes. My weight and my address don't match what's on my photo ID. After this fall, they will match again, until something changes again.

 

[kmoney]

For the most part, the laws are being newly passed in the same parts of the country that like to fly the Confederate flag.

Not sure where you are doing with that.

1. Some people aren't always the same gender even from day to day, especially in the beginnings of a transition.

What do you think gender is?

2. You at least have to go to a government office that may or may not already exist in some form and change the paperwork.

Doesn't exist?

3. Any enforcement is going to involve restroom patrols. Or something.
4. Not everyone has an ID. And not everyone who does carries it. Are we really going to turn people away from restrooms without some sort of paperwork?

I don't see that happening and I don't think the NC law was instituting monitors either.

 

[rexlunae]

Not sure where you are doing with that.

Just an observation. Maybe a coincidence. I just think some of the coincidences are interesting, potentially suggestive.

What do you think gender is?

Several broad categories of how people present themselves to the world.

Doesn't exist?

Depends on what kind of ID we're talking about here. Are we talking about just changing the driver's license?

I don't see that happening and I don't think the NC law was instituting monitors either.

Well, the immediate goal was a response to Charlotte's attempt to protect the rights of trans people using restrooms matching their gender identities. Enforcement on some level must be at least intended.

 

[kmoney]

Just an observation. Maybe a coincidence. I just think some of the coincidences are interesting, potentially suggestive.

Be honest, you don't think the suggestion is only 'potential'. :chuckle: It isn't surprising to see laws like this in mostly conservative areas. Homophobia may be a factor but I still think there could be a kernel of common sense in them, which is what I've been trying to discuss. But, as I mention below, I'm questioning if the law would have a significant effect. And I question if a significant problem/concern has been shown to exist in the first place. Though I will say I see a larger concern for schools. I can easily see some school boys taking advantage of the ability to go into the girls' locker rooms. lain:

Several broad categories of how people present themselves to the world.

And how is each defined? And does that mean you think it's partly/mostly a matter of choice?

Depends on what kind of ID we're talking about here. Are we talking about just changing the driver's license?

That's all I had in mind. Or whatever state ID someone has if they don't drive.

Well, the immediate goal was a response to Charlotte's attempt to protect the rights of trans people using restrooms matching their gender identities. Enforcement on some level must be at least intended.

On some level, I suppose, otherwise what's the point. But it sounds pretty passive. Each place would designate facilities as based on gender that's on the birth certificate. No prescription of enforcement and I highly doubt anyone would set up bouncers. And after looking more, it appears that the law (the bathroom portion) is limited to schools and public agencies. I didn't realize that before. Since enforcement is impractical I don't know what the new law is really doing.
A man attempts to go into a woman's bathroom now before the law. What happens?
A man does it now. What happens? :idunno:

 

[patrick jane]

Mommy ! There's a tranny in the bathroom !!

 

[Ktoyou]

I think restrooms should say, "men, women, geeks.

 

[Ktoyou]

That's all I had in mind. Or whatever state ID someone has if they don't drive.


On some level, I suppose, otherwise what's the point. But it sounds pretty passive. Each place would designate facilities as based on gender that's on the birth certificate. No prescription of enforcement and I highly doubt anyone would set up bouncers. And after looking more, it appears that the law (the bathroom portion) is limited to schools and public agencies. I didn't realize that before. Since enforcement is impractical I don't know what the new law is really doing.
A man attempts to go into a woman's bathroom now before the law. What happens?
A man does it now. What happens? :idunno:

Here is am idea. Have a 'birth certificate ID card" it says 'Restroom ID card" and when you need to go, you use it like a motel key, and if you use the wrong sex card, it sets off a siren.

 

[Ktoyou]

1. Some people aren't always the same gender even from day to day, especially in the beginnings of a transition.

:rotfl: That is too much! You take the cake with that one.

 

[rexlunae]

:rotfl: That is too much! You take the cake with that one.

I do love cake. But I mean it. The transition is a process. It doesn't just finish all of a sudden. It takes years.

 

[kmoney]

In my area a guy was just busted for going into a women's restroom and looking at porn on his phone and then trying to take photos of a young girl over the stall. lain:

 

[kmoney]

Here is am idea. Have a 'birth certificate ID card" it says 'Restroom ID card" and when you need to go, you use it like a motel key, and if you use the wrong sex card, it sets off a siren.

That would involve quite a lot of work and money.

 

[ok doser]

Mommy ! There's a tranny in the bathroom !!

with any luck and a lot of pb blaster, there'll be a tranny in my driveway tonight