No Takers Thread

[meshak]

So you have a problem with universal reconciliation and universalism and do not differentiate between the two?

Earlier you described Universalism, now you say he is preaching universal reconciliation. Do you really consider both to be the same?

Even if you think it is irrelevant in this particular conversation you should still understand the difference.

Just my opinion.

Peace friend.

UR does not teach Jesus' salvation. They make up their own salvation, just like many churchgoers do.

blessings, friend.

 

[popsthebuilder]

UR does not teach Jesus' salvation. They make up their own salvation, just like many churchgoers do.

blessings, friend.

I don't know what kind you speak of, but the type I speak of indeed praises Jesus of Nazareth the Christ, and understands that without his self sacrifice, example and teaching, there would be no salvation, no right way for people to find, no hope, no payment for sins past, by his blood and the will of GOD. It is not my place to condemn others but to attempt to help them to at least find the opportunity for salvation, and for them to help me, as we are to be brothers in Christ and together grow and produce fruit, one the help to the other, through the Holy Spirit, made available through Christ by the will of GOD, for our sake.

I humbly ask that you do not refer to me personally as a universalist, please.

Peace friend.

 

[meshak]

I don't know what kind you speak of, but the type I speak of indeed praises Jesus of Nazareth the Christ, and understands that without his self sacrifice, example and teaching, there would be no salvation, no right way for people to find, no hope, no payment for sins past, by his blood and the will of GOD. It is not my place to condemn others but to attempt to help them to at least find the opportunity for salvation, and for them to help me, as we are to be brothers in Christ and together grow and produce fruit, one the help to the other, through the Holy Spirit, made available through Christ by the will of GOD, for our sake.

I humbly ask that you do not refer to me personally as a universalist, please.

Peace friend.

suit yourself.

good day.

 

[popsthebuilder]

suit yourself.

good day.

Did I say something to offend? It wasn't my intention if so.

Peace

 

[Samie]

You are misusing the Scripture.

Misusing? Is to believe that Jesus meant NOTHING when He said NOTHING misusing Scripture? You want me to believe that He meant SOMETHING when He said NOTHING?

Jesus' word is not complicated and you are making it one.

I'm making it complicated? How? I just believed He meant NOTHING when He said NOTHING? How is that making it complicated?

 

[Ben Masada]

Because Christ has come to this earth, died and rose again, people are born "in Him", not because of what people did, but because of what God through Christ has done for them. Jesus the bread of life came to this world to give it life (John 6:33). Obviously, the world is dead otherwise He would have not given it life. That's why He said that no one can come to Him except the Father draws him (John 6:44).

So, on the cross, the Father fashioned Jews and Gentiles (humanity) into the body of His Son, creating a new man on the cross: The Son is the Head, humanity the body (Eph 2: 11-19). When His Son the Head, died, humanity - His Body - died (2 Cor 5:14, 15). When the Head resurrected, the body was made alive together with Him (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6), born again into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus (1 Pet 1:3).

Now that we all are alive, we can do spiritual things like believing, repenting, etc., which can be summarized simply into overcoming evil with good (Rom 12:21). Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief; repentance is overcoming the evil of impenitence. Being "in Christ", we are attached to Him Who is our Strength for overcoming evil (Phil 4:13). And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

Yahweh, usually does not do something for the sake of the individual but for the sale of the People. Hence, Jesus reference to the salvation that comes from the Jews and not from an individual Jew. (John 4:22)

 

[Desert Reign]

Could someone please explain in a respectable manner what the big problems are with what he is saying?

If you read the thread from the beginning you will see that several people have questioned Samie's understanding of scripture. Including me.

that's the impression I got at beggining, but if your read carefully, he adds something that not quite right. It is very subtle.

He is clever writer.

Rather he is a cowardly one. Because he ignores those who have questioned his interpetation of Jesus' teaching to his own disciples as if they had said nothing. Discussion means nothing to him. He only wants a soap box. He knows he has no argument here. Scripture defeats him. He won't confront it and that is what makes him a coward.

I based the OP in what Jesus said that without, apart or separate from, Him, we can do NOTHING. Yet you insist we were NOT "in Him" yet when we believed. So in effect, you are saying that apart from Christ we can do something instead of nothing. Seems like you are the one NOT interested in what Jesus has to say.

If nothing means nothing, then it also means you cannot eat, drink or get married. You have been told this before, why are you so cowardly as not to deal with this obvious error?

Please look up universal reconciliation, and universalism as the two are not the same. You would do well to not confuse the two.

Peace friend, no disrespect whatsoever.

They may not be the same, but in context it doesn't matter very much. There is no point in people being reconciled unless they are also saved. It's just an overly legalistic attitude. Look at the reality, not the rules. The Bible nowhere says that little babies are saved. You may want them to be, but the Bible says nothing on the subject. Samie says that these babies are all saved. I do not know whether they are or or not. I trust in God for his righteousness and mercy both, and have no issue whatsoever with it. The New Testament also clearly indicates that we need to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. Samie says that we don't have to do anything particular at all. But Samie needs a rule to satisfy his inability to fully trust God. So he invents one and then goes and tries to find scripture backing for it and in so doing lands with egg on his face because his proof text is nothing of the sort. And to save face, he cowardly ignores the issues raised by me and others. He is a walking disaster. Steer clear, is all I can say. You may think he is ok. He isn't.

 

[Samie]

Yahweh, usually does not do something for the sake of the individual but for the sale of the People.

People are composed of individuals.

Hence, Jesus reference to the salvation that comes from the Jews and not from an individual Jew. (John 4:22)

ESV Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

 

[Samie]

If you read the thread from the beginning you will see that several people have questioned Samie's understanding of scripture. Including me.

Yes, questioning, but not addressing the issue raised in the OP.

Rather he is a cowardly one. Because he ignores those who have questioned his interpetation of Jesus' teaching to his own disciples as if they had said nothing. Discussion means nothing to him. He only wants a soap box. He knows he has no argument here. Scripture defeats him. He won't confront it and that is what makes him a coward.

And what did I not confront, brave one?

If nothing means nothing . . .

So you want NOTHING to mean SOMETHING. How brave of you to change what Jesus meant into what you want Him to mean.

. . . then it also means you cannot eat, drink or get married. You have been told this before, why are you so cowardly as not to deal with this obvious error?

So you want to squeeze into our spiritual discussion things that are not spiritual?

Did you know that even demons believe, brave one? But because they are spiritually dead, their belief is tantamount to NOTHING spiritually beneficial. Your contention that even separate from Christ and hence are spiritually dead, yet people can believe, their belief is nothing different from the belief of demons. Can you address this issue, brave one?

The Bible nowhere says that little babies are saved. You may want them to be, but the Bible says nothing on the subject. Samie says that these babies are all saved. I do not know whether they are or or not.

Then study the Bible again, brave one. It's there. For starters, read Isa 11:6-9.

I trust in God for his righteousness and mercy both, and have no issue whatsoever with it. The New Tstament also clearly indicates that we need to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. Samie says that we don't have to do anything particular at all. But Samie needs a rule to satisfy his inability to fully trust God. So he invents one and then goes and tries to find scripture backing for it and in so doing lands with egg on his face because his proof text is nothing of the sort. And to save face, he cowardly ignores the issues raised by me and others. He is a walking disaster. Steer clear, is all I can say. You may think he is ok. He isn't.

Thanks for your ad hominems, brave one. Now, address the issue:

Believing is exercising faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) and only those "in Christ" can bear fruit. Those NOT "in Christ" cannot bear fruit, and therefore have no faith to exercise. So how can they believe? Can they just believe like the demons do, brave one?

 

[Ben Masada]

People are composed of individuals.
ESV Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Please Samie, don't do this because you might be compromising Jesus' own credibility. He himself said that salvation comes rather from listening to "Moses" aka the Law. That's in Luke 16:29-31.

 

[Samie]

Please Samie, don't do this because you might be compromising Jesus' own credibility. He himself said that salvation comes rather from listening to "Moses" aka the Law. That's in Luke 16:29-31.

So what does Acts 4:12 mean to you?

 

[Ben Masada]

People are composed of individuals.
ESV Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Yes, but we are in the New Covenant when no one can die for the sins of another. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20) During the New Covenant, the one who sins shall die. HaShem, who HaElohim, the Lord Our God, the Holy One of Israel, Our SAVIOR, blessed be HE.(Isaiah 43:3)

 

[Ben Masada]

So what does Acts 4:12 mean to you?

Now, Samie, I am going to let you take a pick: The Prophet of the Most High by the name of Isaiah said that only HaShem is our Savior. (Isa. 43:3) Then, many, many years later, Paul came and told you not to believe Isaiah but Paul himself that, there is no other savior but only Jesus himself. (Acts 4:12) Now, you tell me: Whom am I to believe, Isaiah or Paul? Not too hard to take a choice, am I?

 

[Samie]

Now, Samie, I am going to let you take a pick: The Prophet of the Most High by the name of Isaiah said that only HaShem is our Savior. (Isa. 43:3) Then, many, many years later, Paul came and told you not to believe Isaiah but Paul himself that, there is no other savior but only Jesus himself. (Acts 4:12) Now, you tell me: Whom am I to believe, Isaiah or Paul? Not too hard to take a choice, am I?

Where in Scriptures did Paul tell me NOT to believe Isaiah? As to who the Savior is, notice what Paul said:

ESV 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

 

[Samie]

Yes, but we are in the New Covenant when no one can die for the sins of another. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20) During the New Covenant, the one who sins shall die. HaShem, who HaElohim, the Lord Our God, the Holy One of Israel, Our SAVIOR, blessed be HE.(Isaiah 43:3)

What sins are you referring to when during the New Covenant, God remembers our sins NO MORE?

Hebrews 10:16-17 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[Ben Masada]

Where in Scriptures did Paul tell me NOT to believe Isaiah? As to who the Savior is, notice what Paul said:

ESV 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

I asked it of you as you were to one who said so. Embarrassing, isn't!

 

[Ben Masada]

What sins are you referring to when during the New Covenant, God remembers our sins NO MORE?

Hebrews 10:16-17 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

It means you don't have an answer to my questions. And for the sins the Lord would remember no more are the sins from the moment we set things right with the Lord which from scarlet red become as white as snow; sins after we repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

 

[Samie]

I asked it of you as you were to one who said so. Embarrassing, isn't!

Of course it is embarassing for one to tell another that Paul told him not to believe Isaiah and when asked for Scriptures tell the one told he was the one who did the telling.

 

[Samie]

It means you don't have an answer to my questions.

Or rather, it means you are not aware I answered your questions.

And for the sins the Lord would remember no more are the sins from the moment we set things right with the Lord which from scarlet red become as white as snow; sins after we repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

Your reference verses do not say what you want them to have said.

 

[Ben Masada]

Of course it is embarassing for one to tell another that Paul told him not to believe Isaiah and when asked for Scriptures tell the one told he was the one who did the telling.

Now, I am the one embarrassed of you. I thought you were "bigger." I was talking metaphorically. I thought you were familiar with the many parables attributed to Jesus in the gospels.