New experience for a muslim

Mulla Sadra

Member
So allah gives its believers anything they want in heaven?

If they did good deeds we expect good wishes.

it is all about the mentality they own.

thats why there's a hadeeth that says that one man was told in Day of Judgement he's going to hell and he said "O' my God I didn't expect I am going to Hell" so Allah says to his angels "Take him to Heaven, I am in the favorable judgement of my [slave]".

and the evidences in Quran, Hadeeth and Logic are more than enough that this life is not material but spiritual, so the idea of having counterparts of men but not women is against the main theory.

get it ?
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
If they did good deeds we expect good wishes.

it is all about the mentality they own.

thats why there's a hadeeth that says that one man was told in Day of Judgement he's going to hell and he said "O' my God I didn't expect I am going to Hell" so Allah says to his angels "Take him to Heaven, I am in the favorable judgement of my [slave]".

and the evidences in Quran, Hadeeth and Logic are more than enough that this life is not material but spiritual, so the idea of having women for women is against the main theory.

get it ?

Yes, there is no security in worshipping Allah and women receive basically nothing except more slavery.
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
Yes, there is no security in worshipping Allah and women receive basically nothing except more slavery.

And I know some people who worship God for the love of God (Which is the believer wanted in Islam)
others say we just get packed in away from sexual desires for next life.

what do I have to do with them ? as much as they are good mannered citizens, they may have what they wish.

but surely they are not as good as the first type of people.

In Christianity, is Heaven and Hell Relative too or Absolute ? like is it just Heaven or Hell or each one got degrees ?
 

bybee

New member
And I know some people who worship God for the love of God (Which is the believer wanted in Islam)
others say we just get packed in away from sexual desires for next life.

what do I have to do with them ? as much as they are good mannered citizens, they may have what they wish.

but surely they are not as good as the first type of people.

In Christianity, is Heaven and Hell Relative too or Absolute ? like is it just Heaven or Hell or each one got degrees ?

You are very adept at changing the subject when the topic is treatment of women in Islam. While I commend the strong family values and ties within Islam I am appalled at the lack of freedom for women and the treatment of women.
 

lifeisgood

New member
1- Well , I am 16 proved or not in your head, and going to be 17 after 3 months :) I have seen christian kids who also know in bible too much while 16, so not a big deal.

I believed you.

2- Well if he's a Shi'ite scholar Known in Theology is the one who studies syllabus under a theology Marja', and become himself a Marja' in Theology. Each part of the theology got a science, and in each one there's people who are called Ayatullahs who know the best in that part of the religion (for an example Imam Khomeini was a known ayatullah in philosophy and theology)

That does not define for me what KNOWN means under Islam. I study Theology, however, that does not make me KNOWN.

3- there's no law in Sharia that gets ppl chopped off because they have a problem with their husbands, there are laws of how to make them divorce in the contrary.

A woman under Sharia law cannot divorce the same way a Muslim man can, can she?

A woman under Sharia law has to petition a qadi (judge of Muslim jurisprudence) for a divorce under certain conditions.

What are those certain conditions under Sharia law?

What if she does not meet those certain conditions, probably established by the qadi or the Iman for that particular nation, who are men?

Besides to which of the Islamic schools of jurisprudence does the woman go to petition the qadi for a divorce?

If the qadi (which is a man right?) does not agree with the woman (which is most probable); there is no recourse for her to divorce her husband, is there?

4- no it wasn't about theology, it was about emperors who wanted to gain land in the name of Islam, just like some popes wanted to invade Arab world for an empire.

Exactly in the name of Islam and everything that comes with it.

I can't see any muslim who say Christianity was the one who crusaded us.

The Roman Catholic Church crusaded you and for veritable reasons, not just because they wanted to.

The Crusades resulted as a reaction of Muslim aggression against the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines) as well as the Catholics mistreatment of Muslim caravans. The Muslims were running constant aggressive conquest campaigns on Catholic lands as part of their imperialistic expansion.

In 638 the Muslims conquered Jerusalem - the holy land where Jews, Catholics and Christians would pilgrimage to. The pilgrims were persecuted by the Muslims greatly. Over 60 pilgrims were crucified in one short period by the Muslims.

A Muslim governor of Caesarea in the 8th Century seized one large group of pilgrims from Iconium and they were all executed as spies (except for some that chose to convert to Islam instead of facing the sword).

Muslims would ransack the churches if the pilgrims didn't pay protection money.

Catholic iconography and crosses were banned by the Muslims so many churches were pillaged and defaced.

Caliph Mansur (around the 8th Century) ordered that the hands of all Christians and Jews be stamped with a distinctive symbol which helped them be 'humiliated' and identified for paying of the Jizzya (tax for being Christian).

Converts to Christianity were executed (such as the ex-Muslim monk in 789).

Churches and monasteries conquered by the Muslims were plundered and Catholic monks and clergy were often murdered such as Saint Theodosius monastery in Bethlehem.

In 937 during Easter celebrations, specifically Palm Sunday, Muslims rampaged through Jerusalem and destroyed churches including the Church of Calvary and the Church of the Resurrection.

It wasn't until the 960's (up to 200 years later) that the Catholics actually reacted to this violence and persecution.

Etc., etc., etc.

But still I see you talkin' and talkin'

OK. We don’t have to talk anymore.

5- Establishes within the permenant laws of Sharia, as Pork is not permitted for muslims for what we call "Sareeh" law, don't expect he can establish a law that is other than that.

I got it.

The apostate killing is one of the laws that is under governor authority.

Yes, because Islam is a governmental system not a religion.

6- Yes, because when there's a country that takes Sharia law, the law is political, not just a religion, and those who disbelieve in Allah in public are considered traitors of the nation.

So much for "is not Obligatory to choose Islam."

8- no you must have an evidence that the verse can mean that, and that there's no hadeeth that says the contrary of what you say, they call it Science of Tafsir, interpreting Quran, which you nor the 119 verse fella know anything of, but still like to interpret things that are not said to mean what your heads think.

So, as you say, if the verse CAN mean something else that is more to your liking, then, the verse CAN mean what you like and not what the verse really says, especially when there is no hadeeth that says the contrary.
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
You are very adept at changing the subject when the topic is treatment of women in Islam. While I commend the strong family values and ties within Islam I am appalled at the lack of freedom for women and the treatment of women.

She was asking about women ? I thought it was about Heaven and hell.

thanks for commending, firstly.

Indeed, although Quran states that it is BETTER muslim would marry a muslim, whatever is the gender :

And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men [to your women] until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite [you] to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember.

And as you see the verse doesn't say don't marry Jews or Christians, because a Jew or a Christian is not an infidel in Islamic Sharia, they are called "People of Book" and have their own laws.

But there's another verse that came when Muslims were in war with People of Book :

O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them.

You see how the translation changed from "polytheist" to "disbeliever".

But then clerics say this law was about war and the real law is the one in the verse that is dated to the end of the message when there was no war and the law was more of "civil" :

This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

-----

So, Clerics said, it was a sin to marry a man/woman disbeliever before the last verse, and that last verse gave permission to men but not women.

Wait till you hear Shi'ite cleric saying a Shia should only marry a shia.
 
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Mulla Sadra

Member
I believed you.

Thanks !

That does not define for me what KNOWN means under Islam. I study Theology, however, that does not make me KNOWN.

No you must study in the institute not just read some books + wear the clergy clothes


A woman under Sharia law cannot divorce the same way a Muslim man can, can she?

As you call him, He's a "Qadi" means a judge, he shouldn't be in the place if he wasn't just, that is if you are hypothesizing that ALL Sharia law is obeyed, and no She or He can't divorce him before some procedures like having a wise man she chooses from her family and a wise man he chooses from his family (that's after they show a decent effort not to have problems in between) and if that doesn't work they go to the judge, the judge would ask them what the procedures effect was before they came to him and may investigate the wise man, and try himself to save the marriage and give them preachment, because a judge is not about giving law but also a cleric, if not then such procedures help would have to divorce them and then the woman have to wait 3 months before marrying someone else.

Exactly in the name of Islam and everything that comes with it.

Name but not essence

The Roman Catholic Church crusaded you and for veritable reasons, not just because they wanted to.

Who have right takes it at the time, not after 250 years, under another government

OK. We don’t have to talk anymore.

I was talking about you not "We" :sheep:

I got it.

Wow, you are good.

Yes, because Islam is a governmental system not a religion.

Yes, it is both, which makes it suitable not to be slaughtered by Secularism and then Atheism. the problem is with your westerner ideology that doesn't accept this idea...

So much for "is not Obligatory to choose Islam."

Infidel : Who's born unbeliever
People of Book= Christians, Jews and Zoroastrianisms
Apostate: A muslim who change his belief
the Apostate is the one part of that law not the others who are not obliged to be muslims. the Obligation is muslims stay muslims


So, as you say, if the verse CAN mean something else that is more to your liking, then, the verse CAN mean what you like and not what the verse really says, especially when there is no hadeeth that says the contrary.

"Really says" is relative

And all praise be to the one.
 
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lifeisgood

New member
No you must study in the institute not just read some books + wear the clergy clothes

Oh, the institute is KNOWN.

As you call him, He's a "Qadi" means a judge, he shouldn't be in the place if he wasn't just,

And who determines that he is ‘just’?

that is if you are hypothesizing that ALL Sharia law is obeyed, and no She or He can't divorce him before some procedures like having a wise man she chooses from her family and a wise man he chooses from his family (that's after they show a decent effort not to have problems in between) and if that doesn't work they go to the judge, the judge would ask them what the procedures effect was before they came to him and may investigate the wise man, and try himself to save the marriage and give them preachment, because a judge is not about giving law but also a cleric, if not then such procedures help would have to divorce them and then the woman have to wait 3 months before marrying someone else.

So, other men decide if the woman deserves a divorce or not. Woman has no say so in the procedure.

Name but not essence.

Now we also need essence, when before was only in the name of Allah.

Who have right takes it at the time, not after 250 years, under another government

No, the reason the Roman Catholic Church waited 200 years was because they hoped that they could reason with the Muslim religion and understanding that there is no reasoning with the Muslim religion, they got tired of all the atrocities the Muslims were doing to the pilgrims, their churches, their crosses, etc., and took action and crusaded against the Muslims.

I was talking about you not "We"

I know exactly what you were saying and I repeat myself, we can stop talking.

Wow, you are good.

Thank you.

Yes, it is both, which makes it suitable not to be slaughtered by Secularism and then Atheism. the problem is with your westerner ideology that doesn't accept this idea...

That is why if a person does not say the Muslim creed, their head is chopped off, or maybe just their hands, or feet, etc.

Infidel : Who's born unbeliever
People of Book= Christians, Jews and Zoroastrianisms
Apostate: A muslim who change his belief
the Apostate is the one part of that law not the others who are not obliged to be muslims. the Obligation is muslims stay Muslims

Not true and you know it. The Voice of the Martyrs and The Barnabas Fund have collected hundreds of stories, updated daily, of infidels who are mistreated or even murdered without any repercussion for the Muslim murderer. Yet, Muslims still play the “victim” card whenever they can.

In the internet group forums at gawaher.com one comment reads: “the kafirs’ (unbelievers) have been attacking Muslim countries killing Muslim people from the beginning of time…when we have done nothing. Like the people of Israel attack the Muslims from Palestine because they do it for the land and because they hate Arabs/Muslims…we defend them for Allah. We try and spread Islam. The one and only true word of Allah. THEY REJECTED IT; therefore we are ALLOWED to KILL THEM (kafirs). It is NOT forbidden to kill a kafir. Of course, we want to by the will of Allah, peacefully live with them and teach them about the beautiful religion.”

Only Islam has such a long-standing historical tradition of beheading with even, specific commandments recorded in its ‘holy book’ to “strike off their necks” (Qur'an 47:4).

"Really says" is relative

Yes, to a Muslim.

And all praise be to the one.

As Muslims say that we worship the same God, I concur with you, all praise be to Jehovah the God of Israel, and His Prophet, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
Oh, the institute is KNOWN.

What do you mean by institute ?

And who determines that he is ‘just’?

What determines a judge is a what determines he's "just" like any other nation on earth, his acts and its acceptance in the society. and of course his intelligence and ability in the law.

So, other men decide if the woman deserves a divorce or not. Woman has no say so in the procedure.

No, the "wise" is not defined in gender, firstly, secondly if all of this procedures (which are the same whether who wants divorce is the man or the woman) didn't work out for the woman she goes to the judge or and tell him about the problem and her tries and he then divorce her forcefully, even if her husband doesn't accept, the only side that might look like as against female in the system is the "Esma" part where a man can divorce without going to a judge while the woman can't, and thus most people give the "Esma" right to their wives in the marriage contract before marrying. which is no against Sharia but recommended, and you know before anything there's after woman a full tribe to defend her and a father and brothers, so don't expect it to be an easy job to make woman a "slave" under your hand. especially in our communities. because it is not the woman you are marrying but a full tribe behind her to defend her rights.

Now we also need essence, when before was only in the name of Allah.

ambiguous.

No, the reason the Roman Catholic Church waited 200 years was because they hoped that they could reason with the Muslim religion and understanding that there is no reasoning with the Muslim religion, they got tired of all the atrocities the Muslims were doing to the pilgrims, their churches, their crosses, etc., and took action and crusaded against the Muslims.

You say that they wanted to crusade Jerusalem because it is a christian land taken by muslims, Ok so it is not a Jewish land as the other one was trying to convince me 5 pages ago which make you choose between the next :
1- The Imperial pope who tried to crusade Jerusalem is a real chrisitan and thinks Jerusalem is a Christian right and you are wrong as Jewish Chrisitans in giving the Jews that right.
2- The Imperial pope is wrong and you are right.
3- The Imperial pope was trying to conquer the land not for a prophecy but for imperial gain.
if it is one, then your defense about Jews and atheist Israel should be withdrawn, and you must explicitly say it is NOT a jewish right. and then we can speak about history.
it it is two, then this Imperial pope was not a good christian and indeed doesn't have the authority to re-gain a right, that is not his land nor his religion to even defend, and the jews (who are supposedly the right people) were fighting with muslims against Christians, which means it was righteous for muslims to have the land with their jewish allies.
it is three, which is against your hypothesis.
each one of these three means you have a fault in your theory.


I know exactly what you were saying and I repeat myself, we can stop talking.

I again say, I said you not we.

Thank you.

Thanks all for Allah.

That is why if a person does not say the Muslim creed, their head is chopped off, or maybe just their hands, or feet, etc.

ambiguous.

Not true and you know it. The Voice of the Martyrs and The Barnabas Fund have collected hundreds of stories, updated daily, of infidels who are mistreated or even murdered without any repercussion for the Muslim murderer. Yet, Muslims still play the “victim” card whenever they can.

Pedestrians killing other pedestrians under weak governments, nothing to do with Theology.

In the internet group forums at gawaher.com one comment reads: “the kafirs’ (unbelievers) have been attacking Muslim countries killing Muslim people from the beginning of time…when we have done nothing. Like the people of Israel attack the Muslims from Palestine because they do it for the land and because they hate Arabs/Muslims…we defend them for Allah. We try and spread Islam. The one and only true word of Allah. THEY REJECTED IT; therefore we are ALLOWED to KILL THEM (kafirs). It is NOT forbidden to kill a kafir. Of course, we want to by the will of Allah, peacefully live with them and teach them about the beautiful religion.”

So you are now trying to make a some reply for a cyber unknown person as an evidence against me ? I am sure he's either Qaeda or not scientist because he's lacking right syllogism in his own comment, he's not even mentally right to even be an evidence, so please notice. And he's right IN ONE TERM (not all of them) if the unbelievers start a war against muslims, whoever they are, they would be indeed enemies of Islam, but the problem that there's no country of Islam that have defined Sharia law so it can be defended, which makes the one in the comment not-knowledgeable of simple "Imara" (political) Fiqh.

Only Islam has such a long-standing historical tradition of beheading with even, specific commandments recorded in its ‘holy book’ to “strike off their necks” (Qur'an 47:4).

Okay, I am having war with swords, am I supposed to kill people with shotguns or behead them ?
and then "their" in the verse is meant for Jews of Medina who made an alliance with polytheists telling them that "a polytheist is better than a Muslim" so 2 verses before this verse it was talking about this idiotic move for Jews who were living in the middle of an Islamic city (Medina) and trying to plot the regime, it says (Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scripture, purchasing error [in exchange for it] and wishing you would lose the way?) and after it it also talks about this jew (Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scripture, who believe in superstition and false objects of worship and say about the disbelievers, "These are better guided than the believers as to the way"?) and the verse you put in your comment is in between of these two verse : (O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.) which was a very kind answer for those who were traitor of their own country, and this verse was before the war with them started by months, so you can see how Allah was trying to tell them not to be with ATHEISTS against monotheists, but they didn't want to hear, because they had reasons of money and land [like the prophecy you have] to ally with polytheists, and Allah indeed gave victory to his worshipers, and shall give them same victory against today's ATHEISTS and those who say are monotheists but ally with non-believers.


Yes, to a Muslim.

Muslims are just obliged with it, so yes.

As Muslims say that we worship the same God, I concur with you, all praise be to Jehovah the God of Israel, and His Prophet, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

And I say : All Praise be to Allah the one and only, the reason of every reason, the one the existence is under his flux, not a body nor was three parts, living never dead, not parted to be a dead part and a living one, never been materialized, never time governed him nor place, indeed he made time and place, how can he be governed under it ? He made dimensions, how can he be governed under it ?!
He chose from his worshipers those of great sport toward him, Noah and he held him over the seas, Abraham the father of Isaac and Ismael, Ismael the father of the latest, and he chosen a pure spirit for his messenger Esa son of Mary, the prophet that they held upon lies, he never told them to worship but God and never he said he's son of God, the lord praised, how can he have a son ?! but the teams after him conflicted opinions about him and lies they made up, Allah made Esa talk while he was a child,he woke dead, and cured the sick, and before they tried to torture him, his soul was lift to heavens, and never he had been touched or crucified, they say he was crucified, but Allah says not. and then Allah chosen Muhammad to be the last and the light of mercy, the greatest of prophets and the door of highest heavens, made him prophet of last days, and from his daughter shall Mahdi rise and with Esa during last days he shall fill earth with goodness and light, after it was repleted with evilness of Allah's enemies. We are ordered to wait, but not by seeing rights taken, or accepting evilness, we are waiting by defending people of right, against evil and bad, never we were ordered to force a prophecy, if prophecy is right, it is forced upon, not forced by. And Allah never made injustice, because only weak makes injustice, How can he accept murderers for a prophecy ? He accepts deeds and killing of Palestinians is not a good deed, nor is the killing of infidels who are in peace, living by. A prophecy is never forced by, but upon.
 
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Mulla Sadra

Member
Something to be said, I am not sure if you mean Sura 47 verse 4 or Verse 47 Sura 4.

I exercised second possibility in the last comment, if it is the first, then this is the verse :

So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

You can see that the verse is explicit in talking about War Fiqh, that is exercised when we are AT WAR with the un-believers, please notice the red part, which if you have read the verse wouldn't used it as an evidence.

about the "War" Fiqh, the main law about it is what is said in these verses about, what to do when not in war, and what to do in war, and what is better, war or peace.
As it is known that "Believer" means Muslims, "Disbeliever" any non-muslim even if a Jew or Christian :

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe - The ones with whom you made a treaty but then they break their pledge every time, and they do not fear Allah .So if you, [O Muhammad], gain dominance over them in war, disperse by [means of] them those behind them that perhaps they will be reminded. If you [have reason to] fear from a people betrayal, throw [their treaty] back to them, [putting you] on equal terms. Indeed, Allah does not like traitors. And let not those who disbelieve think they will escape. Indeed, they will not cause failure [to Allah ]. And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged. And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. But if they intend to deceive you - then sufficient for you is Allah . It is He who supported you with His help and with the believers

You can see how Treaty is much more nearer to Allah than war even if you know the treaty is actually a try to deceive you, and this is Quran, so don't come tell me about what someone say in a forum.

that someone is basing his "Jihad" according to the idea that YOU are attacking and HE is defending.

Something I did't believe until I heard about the Atheist-Jewish-Christian alliance prophecy against the Ismaeli "***"s in this forum, which almost made me doubtful now.

But I am sure, those who said this are Out of the circle of real christianity, because I read that Pope John Paul the second kissed the Quran and prayed in the great Ummayd Mosque in Damscus, and added this sentence to the Catechism of the Catholic Church :

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

I am sure that the pope is a KNOWN cleric of a value just like a Marja' in Islam, and for that I find Imam Khomeini saying the same thing as the Catechism in the book (the unlawful earnings) about jews , christians and even Atheists
Oh, why go to Ayatollah Khomeini, when Quran says :

and you will find the nearest of people in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.

And for that I am sure the people here are somehow like the #1 ignorant cleric in the video posted earlier, people with strict ideas who are unable to accept others because of prophecies that they don't know the real essence or ideology of.

Please understand the purpose of bolding "Somehow" I am sure that ignorance is a relative matter, and to be strict makes you blind, I am strict sometimes, and it makes me blind or "adept to change subjects" but for never I was ignorant to be as racial as calling 300 million humans beings as dogs for a prophecy that is supposed to happen by itself not by me helping killing people.
 
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Mulla Sadra

Member
Foor Doormat after going into some of the shi'ite Hadeeth books nearby, I found these Hadeeths about Isaiah :

1- Imam Ali said : Allah had revealed to the prophet Isaiah peace be upon him, that he was going to wipe out 100 thousand of his people, 40 of them who are evel, and 60 who are good, Isaiah asked, why shall your judgement be on the good ? Allah revealed to him : they lived with people of bad deeds and didn't get angry for that.

2- Imam Baqir said that at the time of the prophet of Allah Isaiah the king of [some] of Bani Israel was a righteous man, the Jews innovated what wasn't from religion, the prophet told them that they are bringing to themselves the anger of their creator And then King of Babylon come [in intention of war] to them, so they heard what their prophet told them, and asked forgiveness from Allah and prayed.
Allah revealed to Isaiah that he had accepted their repentance, because of their king who had a sore leg, for his righteousness and Allah told Isaiah of the day this king shall die, and that this king should make someone who takes his position after his death.
And when Isaiah went to this king and told him about what he was revealed of, the king cried and prayed to Allah for a longer life to do what is good and to make them victorious against the Babylonian army.
And then Allah revealed to Isaiah that Allah shall make his life longer by 15 years and to cure his leg using [the water of] fig.
and when they woke next day they found that the Babylonian army outside of the city, was destroyed and ruined, and they knew that everyone died but their king and 5 of his soldiers fled, and for that time [that team of] Bani Israel stayed believers and on right path, until this king died and they came back to adding what they weren't ordered and everyone wanted the place of the king to himself, and Isaiah stayed preaching them with no use, until Allah sent punishment and none of them stayed.

3- The prophet Muhammad PBUH&H said : The prophet Isaiah was the one to give the good news of the prophet-hood of me and my brother Esa the son of Mary.

So, there are some scriptures saying Isaiah was a prophet, but he's not mentioned in Quran.
 

xAvarice

BANNED
Banned
An Atheist doing an absolute syllogism ! Fellow religious really affected the way how you answer !

And you mean that there's a human with full immorality today or another with only morality ?

or everyone does both ? the moral who does more moral things and the immoral is the one who does less ?

I don't understand the first part.

As for whether people who are moral or immoral, it depends on whose definition of morality... but I do not wish to live in a world pertaining to Islamic morality.

Do not masturbate! Be right back while I murder a girl for sitting in a car with a male.

If you can justify that, you can justify anything. Moral relativism, the local church would prefer atheism over... that.
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
I don't understand the first part.

As for whether people who are moral or immoral, it depends on whose definition of morality... but I do not wish to live in a world pertaining to Islamic morality.

Do not masturbate! Be right back while I murder a girl for sitting in a car with a male.

If you can justify that, you can justify anything. Moral relativism, the local church would prefer atheism over... that.


1- I meant you are saying :
A- X is immoral
B- Everyone does X
Then : Everyone is immoral.
(Aristotelian syllogism)
But that was a fallacy, because the title "immoral" is not given to someone who does one immoral thing, but does many, and Masturbation (something most of humans, muslims, including me earlier do or did, just like insulting someone else, is a very popular thing, and insulting is also known to be immoral thing to do, sane and insane people made an agreement on that), [Masturbation act] if alone wouldn't mean that person is immoral, in the contrary if that is the only bad thing he does, he is then moral.

2- No they are not killed for sitting with each other, but they are killed if the committed adultery with the term that 4 people saw them (Do it) to the accurate detailing, DNA is not considered an evidence, just the testimony of four under a judge. and if the testimony was conflicted with DNA evidence, it is then unaccepted.

and if they committed adultery, they won't get killed necessarily (with the terms being conducted) , if they are married they are then killed, if they are not, they are just beaten.
and if , then both are killed not just the woman.

but, the supposition is clearly not going to happen, because never in the time of the prophet did 4 testify that this thing happened to two and there was a punishment for it. just in rare cases.

quite contrary if someone alone says that he saw them do something in the car, and no one else testified, and he publicized his testimony, he's considered doing "Kadhf" which is for Allah as big as doing adultery, Allah says in Quran :

Indeed, those who [falsely] accuse chaste, unaware and believing women are cursed in this world and the Hereafter; and they will have a great punishment [24:23]

and says about the law :

And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient. [24:4]

which is more to happen in such cases because it is IMPOSSIBLE to find four to testify such a detailed testimony. (especially that the judge mustn't accept "I saw them kiss" or "I saw them not wearing clothes", he must just accept an accurate down to the case testimony)

so if All Sharia laws were obeyed, then it is impossible to this to happen.

So, No, I don't justify that nor any muslim cleric.

To be added to that, I've sat alone with girls and no one said he's going to kill me or the girl (and if someone tried he would surely get a nice preachment from me).
Yes, we are advised (not ordered) not to be alone with other gender so such conviction is NEVER arisen, as Imam Ali says in one saying in Peak of Eloquence (If one place himself where he may be convicted, let him not blame those who may think ill of him).

Anyways,
you are mixing tribal judicial authorities with religious authorities. So please notice.
 
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The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
You don't have to be against a cult to recognize it as such.

Technically, a cult is just a breakaway religious group. Christianity was, before the Church became the largest of the Abrahamic religions, a cult. The perjorative meanings came later.

I've been in a couple myself.

Again, Protestantism has become too large and mainstream to be called a cult. Some divisions of Protestantism are cults, however, in the technical and the colloquial senses.

God was with us in both.

Whenever two or more of us gather in His name.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
Technically, a cult is just a breakaway religious group. Christianity was, before the Church became the largest of the Abrahamic religions, a cult. The perjorative meanings came later.



Again, Protestantism has become too large and mainstream to be called a cult. Some divisions of Protestantism are cults, however, in the technical and the colloquial senses.



Whenever two or more of us gather in His name.

You've got the Catholic definition of a cult.

A cult is an organization that claims God has entrusted it with keeping or restoring God's truth. It makes its claims to truth not on the merits of the truths themselves but on the authority they believe God has given the organization to determine truth.

That's why I say Islam, the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, the Watchtower Society, and a few cultic Protestant churches are cults.

Note: someone may counter that Islam is not an organization so doesn't fit the definition but it uses the same tactics as a cult nevertheless. Just try to question whether Mohammed was God's prophet in a mosque and you'll see what I mean.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
You've got the Catholic definition of a cult.

Christian.

A cult is an organization that claims God has entrusted it with keeping or restoring God's truth.

If you have a private definition of "cult" then you can hardly blame people for not understanding you.

Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It makes its claims to truth not on the merits of the truths themselves but on the authority they believe God has given the organization to determine truth.

If God says so, it seems to me they are the same thing. Of course, some say that God wasn't using very good judgement when he gave that power to the Church.

That's why I say Islam, the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, the Watchtower Society, and a few cultic Protestant churches are cults.

I notice that (for example) Jim Jones, the Unification Church, and the Jehovah's Witnesses referred to the Church as a cult. Anti-Catholicism makes strange bedfellows. :think:
 
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