Messianic Christology

[Elia]

I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

Bs'd

I'd like to begin debunking all this Christian nonsense about Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, but which are used by Christians who rip them out of context, and then claim that they are "messianic prophecies", which supposedly are fulfilled by their messiah. Hopefully that will edify us.

Here is a good link to start with: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/324x0

 

[Elia]

and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15

This passage teaches that the Messiah will come thru humanity.

Bs'd

"Gen. 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18"

The claim is that the following verses are a messianic prophecy: "The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." The fact of the matter is that nowhere here is spoken about a messiah, nowhere does it speak about a king or a ruler like it does in the genuine messianic prophecies, here is not spoken about a descendent of David or his father Jesse, the word "messiah" is not used here, there is not spoken here about a redeemer who is going to save the whole world from its sins; those things only exist in the minds of brainwashed Christians when they read this text. The only thing this text says is that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the woman? All mankind. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes. “he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That means; men shall kill snakes, and snakes will bite men in the legs. That is all this text says. But even according the Christian understanding there is a big problem. Christianity claims that the snake is the devil, and the seed of the woman is supposed to be JC, who came to crush the head of the serpent. But we see that AFTER the death of JC, as it is written in I Peter 5:8, that the devil is going round like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. So unless somebody wants to say that the devil is going round with a crushed head, looking who he can devour, this prophecy is NOT fulfilled. So if you really want to see this as a messianic prophecy, then you can add another one to the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

 

[Elia]

18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Gen 22:18

This verse teaches that

the Seed of the Woman will be limited as a descendant of Abraham, Messiah will be a Jew.

Bs'd

And now with some context: " When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called the name of that place The Lord will provide;[a] as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.”

15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.”

This is God speaking to Abraham, and telling him all the nations of the earth will bless themselves by his descendants.

So this does not speak about the messiah, but about the Jews in general.

So this has no bearing on the messiah

 

[Elia]

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh come;
And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.
Gen 49:10

This passage teaches

the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of Abraham is now limited to being of the specific tribe of Judah.

Bs'd

Your messiah was not from the tribe of Judah. From what tribe you are goes through the male line, through the father.

Your messiah had no Jewish father from the tribe of Judah, so he was not from Judah.

Messiah will be a king.

Your messiah was not a king, therefore he was not the messiah.

Messiah had to come before AD 70.

With your logic, messiah had to come before the destruction of the first Temple, about 2500 years ago, because then already the Jews lost the sceptre.

 

[Elia]

17 I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not nigh:
There shall come forth a star out of Jacob,
And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel,
And shall smite through the corners of Moab,
And break down all the sons of tumult.
Numbers 24:17

This passage teaches

that the Messiah is to be a king.

Bs'd

Your messiah never was a king.

Your messiah never smote the corners of Moab, and never broke down the sons of tumult.

So your messiah did not fulfill this messianic prophecy, and therefore he was not the messiah.

 

[Elia]

15 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Deut 18:15-19

This passages teaches

that the Messiah will be a prophet.

Bs'd

It surely does not.

What this passage teaches us, is that God would raise up more prophets after Moses.

And so He did. Here are a few:

Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

These were all kosher prophets, they all fit the bill.

No need to try to squeeze the messiah into this verse.

 

[Elia]

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born of a girl who is still a virgin the explanation of Gen 3:15

Bs'd

The prophecy of Isaiah 7:

1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it. 2: When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3: And the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah. 5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying, 6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," 7: thus says the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass.
8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) 9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'" 10: Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,
11: "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." 12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test." 13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

We see here in Isaiah 7, that king Achaz, the king of Judah, is afraid of two neighboring kings.
It is important to know that after the death of king Solomo the kingdom of Israel split up into two parts; into the kingdom of Judah, and the kingdom of Israel.
The kingdom om Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a part of the Levites. The kingdom of Israel was made up of the other ten tribes.
Achaz was king over Judah, and in this prophecy the king of Israel is Pekah, the son of Remaliah.
And Pekah had made a covenant with the king of Syria, called Resin, to attack together the kingdom of Judah.
This news caused king Achaz considerable stress, because he had a dark suspicion that things could very well turn out not so very rosy for him.
Therefore God sent Isaiah to Achaz, in order to tell him that things would work out just fine for him. God tells Achaz that he will give him a sign. Here is the sign: "14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman is pregnant and is giving birth to a son, and she called his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

God says that before the child of the young woman who is pregnant will grow up, the land of the two kings, Resin of Syria, and Pekah of Israel, will be deserted, that is devoid of people. Those two nations will be led into exile.
So this is a sign for king Achaz, who lived about 700 years before JC.

And the Bible tells us that this prophecy came true: "27: In the fifty-second year of Azari'ah king of Judah Pekah the son of Remali'ah began to reign over Israel in Sama'ria, and reigned twenty years. 28: And he did what was evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not depart from the sins of Jerobo'am the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. 29: In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria came and captured I'jon, A'bel-beth-ma'acah, Jan-o'ah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naph'tali; and he carried the people captive to Assyria. 30: Then Hoshe'a the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remali'ah, and struck him down, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzzi'ah."
II Kings 15.

We see here that the population of Israel indeed went into exile, and that the land of king Pekah was deserted.

And here is what happened to Resin, the king of Syria:
"6: At that time the king of Edom recovered Elath for Edom, and drove the men of Judah from Elath; and the E'domites came to Elath, where they dwell to this day. 7: So Ahaz sent messengers to Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up, and rescue me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who are attacking me." 8: Ahaz also took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent a present to the king of Assyria. 9: And the king of Assyria hearkened to him; the king of Assyria marched up against Damascus, and took it, carrying its people captive to Kir, and he killed Rezin."
II Kings 16.

So here we see that also the inhabitants of the land of King Resin went into exile, and also his land was deserted, in the days of Achaz.

So God gave a sign to Achaz.

In the days of Achaz.

About 700 years before JC.

So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

These are only misconceptions of the NT.

However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.

Look here for more reasons why nobody should believe in the New Testament: http://mountzion.notlong.com

 

[Elia]

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

This verse teaches that

Messiah will be the God Man

Bs'd

No such thing is to be found in the verse.

Something about names in the Bible from Isaiah 9:

Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.

Messiah will be a king

The christian messiah never was a king, so he is out.

Messiah will have to come before AD 70

Also that is nowhere to be found in the above verse.

 

[Elia]

Make an uproar, O ye peoples, and be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and be broken in pieces. 10 Take counsel together, and it shall be brought to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Isaiah 8:9-10

Verse 10 literally reads: and it shall not stand because of Immanuel. The real impact of what's being said here gets lost because of the translation of the meaning of the name God with us rather than Immanuel. What this is saying is that God will preserve the house of David because of the Covenant God made with David of an eternal dynasty. Because of the AD 70 destruction of the Jewish temple all of the genealogical records have been lost so it would be impossible to trace the Davidic line after AD 70.

This passage teaches that Messiah must come before the 70 AD destruction of the temple.

Bs'd

The Temple was destroyed 500 years before your messiah was around.

And genealogical records are made by humans, and are subject to error.

God can send a prophet, to point out who is from the Davidic dynasty, and who is not.

No records needed.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 9:6-7

This passage teaches that

Messiah will be king

Your messiah never was a king, so he doesn't fit the bill.

Messiah will be God and Man

Nope, it doesn't say so.

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

 

[Elia]

The voice of one that crieth, Prepare ye in the wilderness the way of Jehovah; make level in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the uneven shall be made level, and the rough places a plain: 5 and the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.
Isaiah 40:3-5

This passage teaches that Messiah

Will have a forerunner.

Bs'd

This passage has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever:

Matt 2:16-18 “Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."”
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.

And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: “10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.”

As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.

Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a “messianic prophecy”.

 

[Elia]

1 Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 42:1-6

This passage teaches

Messiah would be anointed by the Holy Spirit

Bs'd

Also this text has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.

For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com

 

[Elia]

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye peoples, from far: Jehovah hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name: 2 and he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me: and he hath made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he kept me close: 3 and he said unto me, Thou art my servant; Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Isaiah 49:1-3

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be rejected by Israel .

For a time the message of salvation thru Messiah will go out to the Gentiles.

Eventually Israel will receive Messiah; He will be their new covenant.

Israel's acceptance of Messiah will herald the re-gathering of all Jews to the land of Israel.

Bs'd

The above text speaks about God speaking to His servant.

The servant of God is ISRAEL.

No messiah to be found in this text.

 

[Elia]

7 For the Lord Jehovah will help me; therefore have I not been confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be put to shame. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand up together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord Jehovah will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? behold, all they shall wax old as a garment, the moth shall eat them up.

Isaiah 50:7-9

This passage teaches

Messiah would receive special training from the God the Father.

Messiah's first coming would be marked by suffering.

Messiah would be obedient to submitting Himself to physical abuse.

Bs'd

This passage teaches that ISRAEL will be obedient to submitting itself to physical abuse.

No messiah to be found in this text.

 

[Elia]

13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men), 15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 52:13 - 53:13

This passage teaches

Messiah would be born of natural circumstances with no unusual characteristics.

Messiah's first coming would be marked with suffering.

Messiah's first coming would be rejected.

Messiah would undergo a legal trial and be condemned to death.

Messiah would be executed.

Messiah would be buried in a rich man's tomb.

Messiah would be resurrected.

All of the Messiahs suffering and death were to be substitutionary. He died so that we may have life. He died so that our sins could be removed from us. He died so that we may enter into a new relationship with God.

Messiah would bring justification to all who believe in Him.

Bs'd

As usual, Isaiah 53 has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.

For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com

 

[Elia]

1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified.
Isaiah 61:1-3

This passage teaches

Messiah would be anointed by the Spirit for His mission.

Messiah would have a prophetic preaching
ministry.

Bs'd

This passage of course speaks about the prophet Isaiah.

There is not the slightest indication it speaks about the messiah.

 

[Elia]

. 5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
Jeremiah 23:5-6

This passage teaches

Messiah would be a God Man.

The Messiah would be Jehovah Himself; Jehovah would become a man.

Messiah would be a descendant of David and therefore king. Jeremiah here reaffirms the Davidic Covenant (discussed under I Chronicles 17:10b - 14).

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

Why is it that Christians try to proof that Christ was the messiah by bringing messianic prophecies that he did NOT fulfill???

And because of the fact that the name of the messias will be "Y-H-V-H is our righteousness", that does not mean that the messiah will be God Himself:

Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.

 

[Elia]

. 2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;

Bs'd

Was JC ever a ruler in Israel?

Why is it that Christians bring messianic prophecies NOT fulfilled by their messiah, in order to prove that he was the messiah???

whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born in Bethlehem the city of David.

Messiah would be divine as well as human, having existing from eternity past.

Micah 5:2
New American Standard Bible "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

Holman Christian Standard Bible " Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me. His origin is from antiquity, from eternity.

New Life Version "His coming was planned long ago, from the beginning."

Darby Translation "whose goings forth are from of old, from the days of eternity."

American Standard Version "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."

All versions of the King James: "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Amplified Bible "Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days (eternity).


All the above translation say the origins of the messiah are from "everlasting" or from "eternity", hereby implying that the messiah is God.
The Hebrew words here translated with "from everlasting" or "days of eternity" are "jamei olaam", which means literally "ancient days".
Many Bible translations translate it like that, only the above hold on to "days of eternity", or something with the same implications, because they want to push the wrong Christian idea that the messiah is God himself.

However, also the above translations know how to correctly translate the words "jamei olaam". We see that for instance in Micah 7:14, were the same expression "jamei olaam" is used. See here how the above translate it there:

Holman Christian Standard Bible " Let them graze in Bashan and Gilead as in ancient times."

New Life Version "Let them eat in Bashan and Gilead as in days long ago."

Darby Translation "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. "

American Standard Version "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."

King James: "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."

New American Standard Bible "Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead As in the days of old."

Amplified Bible "they shall feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."




Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used, is in Isaiah 63:11

Holman Christian Standard Bible " Then He remembered the days of the past, [the days] of Moses [and] his people."

New Life Version "Then His people remembered the days long ago, the days of Moses."

Darby Translation "But he remembered the days of old, Moses [and] his people:"

American Standard Version "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people,"

King James: "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people,"

New American Standard Bible "Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses"

Amplified Bible "Then His people [seriously] remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people"




Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used is Amos 9:11

Holman Christian Standard Bible "In that day I will restore the fallen booth of David: I will repair its gaps,
restore its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old,"

New Life Version "In that day I will build again the tent of David that fell down. Yes, I will build it again from the stones that fell down. I will set it up again as it used to be."

Darby Translation "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"

American Standard Version "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;"

King James: "and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"

Amplified Bible "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old,"

New American Standard Bible "I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;"



Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used is in Malachi 3:4

Holman Christian Standard Bible "And the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will please the LORD as in days of old and years gone by"

New Life Version "Then the gifts of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord, as they were in the past."

Darby Translation "Then shall the oblation of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto J-e-h-o-v-a-h, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

American Standard Version "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto J-e-h-o-v-a-h, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years. "

King James: "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

Amplified Bible "hen will the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in ancient years."

New American Standard Bible ""Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years."

It should be clear by now for everybody that the expression "jamei olaam" has no bearing on "days of eternity" whatsoever.
It is always translated correct, except there where Christianity wants to push it's dogma of a divine messiah. There the translations are corrupted in order to squeeze in the Christian messiah.

Beware of the Christian Bible translations!!!​

 

[Elia]

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, even upon a colt the foal of an ***. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Zachariah 9:9-10

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be in humility.

Messiah's official presentation as the Messianic King would come when He rides into Jerusalem, riding on the foal of a donkey.

Bs'd

Why is that Christians bring messianic prophecies, NOT fulfilled by their messiah, in order to proof that he was the messiah???

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

 

[Elia]

1 Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars. 2 Wail, O fir-tree, for the cedar is fallen, because the goodly ones are destroyed: wail, O ye oaks of Bashan, for the strong forest is come down. 3 A voice of the wailing of the shepherds! for their glory is destroyed: a voice of the roaring of young lions! for the pride of the Jordan is laid waste. 4 Thus said Jehovah my God: Feed the flock of slaughter; 5 whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty; and they that sell them say, Blessed be Jehovah, for I am rich; and their own shepherds pity them not. 6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith Jehovah; but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbor’s hand, and into the hand of his king; and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. 7 So I fed the flock of slaughter, verily the poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zachariah 11:1-7

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be rejected, especially by the Jewish leaders.

While the nation as a whole would reject Messiah there would be a small Remnant of believing people who would accept Him.

The leadership of Israel would sell Him out for thirty pieces of silver.

The results of the rejection would be twofold, first, the protection would be taken away leaving Israel vulnerable to Gentile attack - in AD 70. Second, unity would be removed and Israel would be scattered.

Because they turned away from the true Messiah they would foolishly accept a false messiah. This led to the second devastation of the land in AD 135.

If the destruction described in verses 1-3 were the destruction in AD 70 then the Messiah would have to come before 70 AD.

Messiah is the Good Shepherd Jn 10:11-18

Bs'd

This is a bad joke.

There is no messiah to be seen in the above text, all the more so not a rejected messiah.

It speaks about the destruction of Lebanon, not of Israel.

The writer has no idea what he is talking about.

 

[Elia]

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

Zachariah 12:10

This verse teaches

Messiah's first coming would be rejected by Israel.

Messiah would die a violent death by means of piercing.

Messiah would be both God and man.

Bs'd

As usual, there is no messiah to be seen in the above text, and no, God is not pierced.

If you want to know what is going on in Zach 12:10, look HERE.