Lesbian Methodist Minister

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Crow

We all fit under more than one label. But we catagorize to understand.
I'm with you so far...

When you see a patient, isn't one of the first things you do is to assess them and try to come up with a diagnosis? And isn't a diagnosis a label?
Yes, but that is a particular circumstance requiring categorization of processes to devise a treatment. One label is used to condemn and drive people away from society, while the other is an attempt to heal and bring understanding.

"God hates fags." is quite a bit different from "Shizophrenics are mentally confused individuals.

Of course that person is more than a label. No one in their right mind thinks a label is a total description, unless, or course, they are a fruitcake.
Ahh... there's a Jimmy Buffett song by that title... :guitar:
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Zakath


"God hates fags." is quite a bit different from "Shizophrenics are mentally confused individuals.

It is different, but do you know exactly what the individual who makes that statement is conveying without furthur explaination?

The purpose of any label is so that we can understand what the other person is talking about. Just as you wish to convey certain information by saying "so and so is BPD" another person conveys other information by "fag."

Now if you don't agree with the viewpoint of the person who is conveying information, sobeit, but it doesn't mean that labels aren't useful and effective.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Zakath

[Zakath settles back and gets ready for the inevitable No True Scotsman argument...]
What pint is that argument. Especially since any man who is born in Scotland is a Scotsman, no matter what. And when it comes to Christianity, anyone who is born of the Spirit [of God] is a Christian. And than will never change, not for either one of them. So, the true question is, were those who burned certain people at the stake born of the Spirit? Well, if the reasons they put these people to death were for committing capitol crimes, that were against the Mosaic law, and the death penalty was commanded, then I see no reason to believe they weren't born of the Spirit. As long as it was the government who was responsible for the conviction and sentencing. Burning witches and queers at the stake is very Christian. Now, if the claims of Joan of Arc were true, then those who convicted her were not born of the Spirit, or they would have known she was telling the truth. Of course, we are speaking of Catholics in some of these instances, and I do not believe that the Catholic officials responsible for some of these things were truly born of the Spirit, or they would have left the Catholic faith, realizing that the doctrines were contra-Biblical. As Martin Luther did.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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Originally posted by Zakath

"God hates fags." is quite a bit different from "Shizophrenics are mentally confused individuals.
There's a problem with that phrase, though. It's a lie. God doesn't hate fags. Fags hate God. God loves them, which is why He hates what they are. Well, I guess one could say that God hates fags, and be correct. Seeing as how semantics could be an issue. I could say that God loves firechyld, or beanieboy, and that they are both fags, and God hates fags, and it would all be true.
 

Frank Ernest

New member
Hall of Fame
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
--Stephen Roberts

:darwinsm: I do hope this quote was not meant to be representative of some form of "thought."
 

Frank Ernest

New member
Hall of Fame
"Yes, but that is a particular circumstance requiring categorization of processes to devise a treatment. One label is used to condemn and drive people away from society, while the other is an attempt to heal and bring understanding."

Which means, of course, that only qualified professional liberal atheists (q.v. :zakath: ) are allowed to use "labels." :chuckle:
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
It's the use the labels are put to, not the labeling itself that is the issue...

Of course I didn't expect someone of your intellectual capacity to pick up on that point, frankie. Even thought Crow did so. :rolleyes:
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Labels say alot more about the one who uses them than the one
being described. Someone says "fag" identifies him / herself
as an intolerant, narrow minded bigot. Same as the "n" word
used commonly not so many years back for black people.
Not so long ago, it was absolutely proven in scripture that
black people were "meant" by God to be subservient to
white people.

We never learn.

Dave
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Dave Miller


Not so long ago, it was absolutely proven in scripture that
black people were "meant" by God to be subservient to
white people.
A lie from the pit of Hell!
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by deardelmar

A lie from the pit of Hell!
What's a lie? That it was "absolutely proven" or that it was taught by Christians at all?

If the latter, your ignorance is amazing, dd. Obviously you never grew up in the South.

Blacks, Christians taught, were the children of Ham and bore his curse, to serve as slaves for the "higher" races.

...Josiah Priest, whose Slavery as it Relates to the Negro or African Race (1843) was widely read in America prior to the Civil War. Not only did Priest dwell on Ham’s career and character in a manner that was quite uncharacteristic of antebellum writers, he offered the seamy details of Ham’s offense against Noah. Apparently following the rabbinic midrashic tradition, Priest argued that Ham’s outrage "did not consist alone in the seeing his father’s nakedness as a man, but rather in the abuse and actual violation of his own mother." He continued:

This opinion is strengthened by a passage found in Levit. xviii. 8, as follows: "The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness." On account of this passage, it has been believed that the crime of Ham did not consist alone of seeing his father in an improper manner, but rather of his own mother, the wife of Noah, and violating her.
If this was so, how much more horrible, therefore, appears the character of Ham, and how much more deserving the curse, which was laid upon him and his race, of whom it was foreseen that they would be like this, their lewd ancestor.

Priest’s defamation of Ham and his descendants extended beyond the charge of sexual impropriety. In fact, he asked his readers to imagine a scene in which Noah is explaining to Ham just why his malediction is deserved:
  • Oh Ham, my son, it is not for this one deed alone which you have just committed that I have, by God's command, thus condemned you and your race, but the Lord has shown me that all your descendants will, more or less, be like you their father, on which account, it is determined by the Creator that you and your people are to occupy the lowest condition of all the families among mankind, and even be enslaved as brute beasts, going down in the scale of human society, beyond and below the ordinary exigencies of mortal existence, arising out of war, revolutions, and conflicts, for you will, and must be, both in times of peace and war, a despised, a degraded, and an oppressed race.
Considering the broad influence of Priest’s text and its relatively early date of publication – not to mention the widespread conception of the "lascivious African" and the popular notions that blacks were more "sensuous" than intellectual, naturally lewd, and in possession of unusually large sex organs16 – it is remarkable that antebellum slavery advocates did not follow Priest in exploiting the theme of sexual impropriety that is foregrounded in the history of interpretation and implied by the biblical text.

Original Dishonor: Noah’s Curse and the Southern Defense of Slavery

Additionally...

In 1856 Reverend Thomas Stringfellow, a Baptist minister from Culpepper County in Virginia, put the pro-slavery Christian message succinctly in his "A Scriptural View of Slavery:"

...Jesus Christ recognized this institution as one that was lawful among men, and regulated its relative duties... I affirm then, first (and no man denies) that Jesus Christ has not abolished slavery by a prohibitory command; and second, I affirm, he has introduced no new moral principle which can work its destruction...

Although many Christians today would be horrified at using the Bible as a support for racism, they should recognize that it was used in just such a fashion by Christians in America in the same way and with the same justification as Christians today use the Bible in their defense of their favorite ideas. Even as recently as the 1950's and 60's, Christians vehemently opposed desegregation or "race-mixing" for religious reasons. The "curse" of poor Ham lingered on in the minds of white Christians who fought to preserve a constant separation of the races.

A corollary to the inferiority of blacks has long been the superiority of white Protestants - something which has not yet dissipated in America. Although "Caucasians" are not to be found anywhere in the Bible, that hasn't stopped members of Christian Identity groups from using the Bible to prove that they are the true "chosen people" or "true Israelites." This may seem bizarre, but it has long been popular among American Protestants to see themselves as being "divinely appointed" to tame the American wilderness despite the "demon Indians." Americans are supposed to be blessed with a special destiny by God, and many read an American role in Armageddon in the book of Revelations. I am ever amazed at the degree to which Christianity encourages extreme egotism and inflated sense of self-importance or personal destiny.

Christian Identity is just a new kid on the block of White Protestant Supremacy - the earliest such group was the infamous Ku Klux Klan. Too few people realize that the KKK was founded as a Christian organization and still sees itself in terms of defending true Christianity. Especially in the earliest days, Klansmen openly recruited in churches (white and segregated, of course), attracting members from all strata of society, including the clergy.

- Source

...John Saffin, a Puritan leader explained, "God has ordained different decrees and orders of men, some to be High-Honorable, some to be Low-Despicable... yea, some to be born slaves, and so to remain during their lives, as hath been proved..." He reasoned if "parity" or equality is true for all men- slave and free, then God and his order are "wrong and unjust."

Source - (Mathews, Donald G. (1977). Religion in the Old South. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. ).

The so-called "curse of Ham", taught from Christian pulpits, was used to justify black slavery for centuries.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Dave Miller

Labels say alot more about the one who uses them than the one
being described. Someone says "fag" identifies him / herself
as an intolerant, narrow minded bigot.
Yes, I am intolerant of homosexuality, and all other ungodliness.

And I am very narrow minded, because, "narrow is the way..."

Same as the "n" word
used commonly not so many years back for black people.
Sorry, but black people were born black. Queers were not born that way, anymore than John Wayne Gacy was born a child molesting murderer. So it is not the same.

Not so long ago, it was absolutely proven in scripture that
black people were "meant" by God to be subservient to
white people.

We never learn.

Dave
See what delmar said. Unless you meant that scripture was twisted and misused. Either way, homos are not born that way, and God doesn't want them to be that way. Blacks were born black, and God created them that way, so He has no contention with them. Homosexuality consists of certain actions, black is nothing more than a skin color.
 

Frank Ernest

New member
Hall of Fame
:zakath:
Of course I didn't expect someone of your intellectual capacity to pick up on that point, frankie. Even thought Crow did so.

FrankiE:
:darwinsm: Another distinction without a difference? Alrighty! I'll assign you the "jerk" label, but I mean it in a nice way. :darwinsm: :p
 

Art Deco

New member
Originally posted by Zakath The so-called "curse of Ham", taught from Christian pulpits, was used to justify black slavery for centuries.


Genesis 9:22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's (Noah's) nakedness and told his two brothers outside.

Genesis 9:24-25 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."

Genesis 9:26-27 He also said, "Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave." (end of citations)


It would appear that Noah's curse required Canaan be subservient to Shem and Japheth be it via full fledged slavery or lesser cultural status.
 

Frank Ernest

New member
Hall of Fame
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Miller
Labels say alot more about the one who uses them than the one
being described. Someone says "fag" identifies him / herself
as an intolerant, narrow minded bigot.

FrankiE:
Since we're into political correctness, how about one who says, "homophobe?" Also an intolerant, narrow-minded bigot?
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Dave Miller

Labels say alot more about the one who uses them than the one
being described. Someone says "fag" identifies him / herself
as an intolerant, narrow minded bigot.

Did you read anything Crow said?

Same as the "n" word
used commonly not so many years back for black people.
Not so long ago, it was absolutely proven in scripture that
black people were "meant" by God to be subservient to
white people.

Show me where Scripture says such a thing. Or are you using the same "absolute proof" you've used to show how "fag" came to mean homo?

We never learn.

Speak for yourself.

Try getting into something called reality, it does a body good.
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Originally posted by Frank Ernest

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Miller
Labels say alot more about the one who uses them than the one
being described. Someone says "fag" identifies him / herself
as an intolerant, narrow minded bigot.

FrankiE:
Since we're into political correctness, how about one who says, "homophobe?" Also an intolerant, narrow-minded bigot?

Possibly, but more likely a defensive comeback after being
called fag...
 

gabriel

New member
Originally posted by deardelmar

A lie from the pit of Hell!


....deardelmar. i wish it were not true that the bible was used to justify the "superiority of the white race"... however, being a southerner i have heard that from white christians more than i care to admit. as a matter of fact, minutes before i was pushed backwards down a flight of stairs (a point i have mentioned on a different thread) for defending the black race i heard this "biblical justification" spew forth from a white man's mouth - a gaping, evil hole set in the middle of a face red with rage - rage because i had challenged his beloved biblical worldview.
 

gabriel

New member
Originally posted by lighthouse

There's a problem with that phrase, though. It's a lie. God doesn't hate fags. Fags hate God. God loves them, which is why He hates what they are. Well, I guess one could say that God hates fags, and be correct. Seeing as how semantics could be an issue. I could say that God loves firechyld, or beanieboy, and that they are both fags, and God hates fags, and it would all be true.

hmmm, "God doesn't hate fags.................God loves them, which is why He hates what they are." okaaaaaayyyy :confused:


btw, my christian gay friends love god. and he loves them.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Art Deco

Genesis 9:22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's (Noah's) nakedness and told his two brothers outside.

Genesis 9:24-25 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."

Genesis 9:26-27 He also said, "Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave." (end of citations)


It would appear that Noah's curse required Canaan be subservient to Shem and Japheth be it via full fledged slavery or lesser cultural status.
I didn't say I agreed with such poor exegesis... merely pointed out that it was being taught by born-again Christians not too different from some folks here.
 
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