Justification by Faith Alone

[Cruciform]

...Catholics have confused repentance for penance, and hence have involved good works (penance) in justification.

Answered---and corrected---here. Back to Post #2 above.


I also highly recommend this excellent recently-published text:

J. Akin, THE DRAMA OF SALVATION: How God Rescues You From Your Sins & Brings You To Eternal Life (Catholic Answers Press, 2015)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[lukecash12]

Answered---and corrected---here. Back to Post #2 above.


I also highly recommend this excellent recently-published text:

J. Akin, THE DRAMA OF SALVATION: How God Rescues You From Your Sins & Brings You To Eternal Life (Catholic Answers Press, 2015)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

I appreciate Catholic theology. Any Reformed thinker like myself should be able to appreciate Catholic theology because much of their history is our history, they have given us Aquinas and Augustine, Athanasius and the Cappadocian brothers, as well as innumerable other interesting figures like William of Auvergne. Aside from the big names in theology and philosophy that resonate with Reformed thinkers, there are lovers of the Lord that most anyone Christian should be able to appreciate, like brother Martin the French Carmelite ("O thou God of pots and pans"). Let me emphasize that first and foremost.

However, I would like to have a discussion with you. This is a discussion forum. Reading references are always welcome, and I have read your links so far. What portions of your reference material would you like to discuss? Why do you personally think that Roman Catholic theology isn't confusing penance and repentance?

Magnificat anima mea, Dominum.

 

[bybee]

I appreciate Catholic theology. Any Reformed thinker like myself should be able to appreciate Catholic theology because much of their history is our history, they have given us Aquinas and Augustine, Athanasius and the Cappadocian brothers, as well as innumerable other interesting figures like William of Auvergne. Aside from the big names in theology and philosophy that resonate with Reformed thinkers, there are lovers of the Lord that most anyone Christian should be able to appreciate, like brother Martin the French Carmelite ("O thou God of pots and pans"). Let me emphasize that first and foremost.

However, I would like to have a discussion with you. This is a discussion forum. Reading references are always welcome, and I have read your links so far. What portions of your reference material would you like to discuss? Why do you personally think that Roman Catholic theology isn't confusing penance and repentance?

Magnificat anima mea, Dominum.

Town Heretic introduced me to "Brother Lawrence" a while ago!
A lovely fellow!
I suspect that, often, consequences become fitting penances when in the presence of a contrite heart?

 

[Interplanner]

It was a mystery but it was spoken of by the writer of the Gospel of John. And by Paul.

John was so focused on depicting Jesus as the slaughtered sinless Lamb of God that he even changed the day that Jesus was killed ! The other three gospels wrote that Jesus died on the next day.

For John, Jesus dies on the Day of Preparation. This was the day BEFORE Passover, the day when the lambs to be eaten at tomorrow's festal holiday were killed, skinned and cooked.

Both John and Paul of Tarsus believed in a sacrificial metaphor of Jesus's death. Jesus and John the Baptizer followed a much older tradition of a God of mercy who demands repentance and forgiveness of others.

The two contradictory traditions can be seen interwoven throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Nonsense.

 

[Robert Pate]

Justification by faith alone, also meaning that we are justified by Christ alone is the foundation of the Christian faith.

The Gospel is the means of our justification. There is no other name than by the name of Jesus that we can be saved.

We are not saved by the name of Calvinism, nor are we saved by the name of Catholicism. We are saved solely by the name of Jesus.

Jesus said... "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man can come to the Father but by me" John 14:6.

Not by the way of Calvinism. Not by the way of Catholicism. Not by the way of anything.

Was it not Jesus that fulfilled the demands of God's Holy Law, Romans 10:4.

Was it not Jesus that atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2?

It is Jesus that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

 

[Cruciform]

I appreciate Catholic theology. Any Reformed thinker like myself should be able to appreciate Catholic theology because much of their history is our history, they have given us Aquinas and Augustine, Athanasius and the Cappadocian brothers, as well as innumerable other interesting figures like William of Auvergne. Aside from the big names in theology and philosophy that resonate with Reformed thinkers, there are lovers of the Lord that most anyone Christian should be able to appreciate, like brother Martin the French Carmelite ("O thou God of pots and pans"). Let me emphasize that first and foremost.

I appreciate that, as a former Reformed thinker myself.

What portions of your reference material would you like to discuss?

If you have a specific question not addressed in the cited material, I would be glad to offer additional info.

Why do you personally think that Roman Catholic theology isn't confusing penance and repentance?

While repentance (contrition) and penance are organically related, the two are distinguished (though not separated) in Catholic theology. For example, repentance is defined as "Sorrow of the soul and hatred for the sin committed, together with a resolution not to sin again."* Penance is more specifically seen as an external act involving such practices as fasting, prayer, and almsgiving. Given that genuine penance involves within it true repentance, Protestants sometimes conclude (wrongly) that the two are identical in the Catholic mind.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+


__________
*Catechism of the Catholic Church, Glossary pp. 872.

 

[beloved57]

pate

Justification by faith alone, also meaning that we are justified by Christ alone is the foundation of the Christian faith.

You teach millions for whom Christ Justified, made righteous, shall wind up in hell !

 

[Robert Pate]

pate



You teach millions for whom Christ Justified, made righteous, shall wind up in hell !

If anyone goes to hell it will be because like you they refuse to believe in Jesus.

Instead they want to be predestinated and skip around Jesus and his Gospel.

 

[beloved57]

If anyone goes to hell it will be because like you they refuse to believe in Jesus.

Instead they want to be predestinated and skip around Jesus and his Gospel.

So you believe that Christ death alone is ineffective to save them He died for! That's unbelief!

 

[Cedarbay]

Paul disagrees. Salvation is worked out through obedience.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 NKJV)​

Verse 13 of the second chapter of Phillipians is the great joy for Christians, because it is God who does the work of sanctification, as He works His will in the believer for His purposes.

Phil 2:13

 

[Robert Pate]

Paul disagrees. Salvation is worked out through obedience.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 NKJV)​

Then you apparetly believe that Paul was lying when he said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

 

[beloved57]

Then you apparetly believe that Paul was lying when he said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

You teach that Christ saving death failed to save all for whom He lived and died for!

 

[Bright Raven]

You teach that Christ saving death failed to save all for whom He lived and died for!

Nope! You just do not understand the Scriptures.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul disagrees. Salvation is worked out through obedience.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 NKJV)​

Paul did NOT say "work FOR our own salvation". He said to work it OUT....let what the Lord has done and is doing in you out into the open where all can see it...thus there will be no reason for rebuke as we "shine as lights in the world". We have salvation through our Lord's obedience, so there is no need to work FOR it. Nor is it possible. Salvation is a GIFT.

We see here it is God which works in us....giving us both the will and the ability to do His good pleasure.

Phil. 2:13-15
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;​

 

[jamie]

We have salvation through our Lord's obedience, so there is no need to work FOR it. Nor is it possible. Salvation is a GIFT.

Salvation is a gift we receive through our obedience to God's instructions. We are created in Jesus Christ for good works that we should walk in them.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 NKJV)​

Christ will reward each of us according to our works, not his works.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will reward each according to his works.
(Matthew 16:27 NKJV)

And behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me to give to everyone according to his work. (Revelation 22:12 NKJV)
​

 

[Robert Pate]

Paul did NOT say "work FOR our own salvation". He said to work it OUT....let what the Lord has done and is doing in you out into the open where all can see it...thus there will be no reason for rebuke as we "shine as lights in the world". We have salvation through our Lord's obedience, so there is no need to work FOR it. Nor is it possible. Salvation is a GIFT.

We see here it is God which works in us....giving us both the will and the ability to do His good pleasure.

Phil. 2:13-15
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;​

AMEN!

 

[glorydaz]

Salvation is a gift we receive through our obedience to God's instructions. We are created in Jesus Christ for good works that we should walk in them.

No, our only obedience is the obedience of faith when we believe. The Gift is given to those who believe. We believe enough to reach out and receive what is freely offered to all.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 NKJV)​

Indeed, we are HIS workmanship...give Him all the glory.

A Gift is not something we earn. If you would read the verses in context, you will see a Gift "not of yourselves" and "not of works", lest any man should boast.

Eph. 2:8-9For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

Christ will reward each of us according to our works, not his works.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will reward each according to his works.
(Matthew 16:27 NKJV)

And behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me to give to everyone according to his work. (Revelation 22:12 NKJV)
​

You're confusing rewards with salvation. Rewards are something we earn. There's the difference.

 

[meshak]

Salvation is a gift we receive through our obedience to God's instructions. We are created in Jesus Christ for good works that we should walk in them.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 NKJV)​

Christ will reward each of us according to our works, not his works.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will reward each according to his works.
(Matthew 16:27 NKJV)

And behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me to give to everyone according to his work. (Revelation 22:12 NKJV)
​

You go girl

 

[heir]

The "all", the Saved, are those who were elected to Salvation before the foundation of the world.

That's it.

~~~~~

Salvation is wide open today! Anyone and everyone can be saved by trusting the Lord believing the preaching of the cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) as God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them!

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Wrong dividing Calvinists worship an impotent god: unable to save the world by the faith and cross work of Christ.

 

[Robert Pate]

Believing we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ is true absolutely. The reason for this is because it says that's the case such as OP pointed out in verses like Romans 3:26, Romans 4:5. In verse 4:5 it is particularly revealing as it says to those who do no works, but believe in Jesus, their faith is accounted for righteousness. Abraham himself believed in God and it was accounted him as righteousness as in Genesis 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

We also must reconcile this with warnings in the bible. God hates evil most certainly. Proverbs tell us through out the whole book to not be simple but be wise. Jesus himself tells the woman he forgave, "Go and sin no more".

I believe I am victorious through my faith in Jesus Christ. The son of God, who was born of a virgin, baptized by John the Baptist taking the sin of the world, crucified with the sin of the world, and resurrected as our victorious God. Jesus wants us to live in the newness of life now that we have been cleaned.

Jesus died so that we would not die. That is justice. Sin requires death, and death was given by Jesus blood. That justifies us alone. Faith in God is what justifies us. Praise God.

Paul himself says "Shall we sin so grace shall increase? By no means! How can I who am dead to sin, live in it any longer? " Romans 6:1-3

I think Romans 6 answers everyone's questions pretty clearly. We are definitely free but are not to use our freedom to sin.

Excellent post.