Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[KingdomRose]

I can emphathize with you - My disseratation on 'Alpha & Omega' shared with JS is here. We wrestled on this theme too

I wonder why he keeps on with exactly what he said in the beginning, without any consideration to your arguments or mine. It is frustrating, in a debate or discussion, to make points...and yet the other person doesn't even listen to them, never mind give a reasonable reply.

 

[KingdomRose]

You had no argument about the verses which I quoted. You just IGNORED them and assert that you have proof that what is said in those verses is not true.

Why don't you step up to the plate and actually address these specific passages which I quoted?

If your ideas are right then you should have no problem dealing with these actual passages and proving that what is said in them supports you position.

I HAVE addressed your specific passages, very carefully. You have just chosen to ignore what I said.

 

[KingdomRose]

Your problem is, you're a "Jehovah Witness" therefore, a member of a cult.

You obviously don't have an intelligent, reasonable, meaningful and helpful thing to say, so you fall back on insults.

 

[KingdomRose]

Why should we when it isn't?

It's quite sad that you don't even realize that your doctrines are off the charts and not anywhere within the true Christian belief structure.

 

[KingdomRose]

Me too.

You've GOT to be kidding. :kookoo:

 

[KingdomRose]

Let us look at this passage:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

The Jews who heard Him obviously thought that when He referred to His Father that way that He was claiming to be God.

If this was just a misunderstanding then the Lord Jesus would have cleared this up, saying, "No, I am not claiming to be God." However, what He told the Jews only made it even more plain that He was claiming to be God. First, He told them that He had the same power to raise up the dead as does the Father (v.21). He then said that all judgment has been committed to Him by the Father (v.22). Then He told them this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

There can be absolutely no doubt that by those words the Lord Jesus was confirming the Jews' idea that He was making Himself equal to God. And there is no reason at all why He would say those things unless He is God.

Perhaps someone on this thread can explain why He said those things?

Thanks!

He did not make himself equal with God. The Jews just ACCUSED him of that. He REFUTED what they said, and made clear that he was saying that he said he was GOD'S SON.

JOHN 10:34-36


See also the rest of John chapter 5 that you ignored.....when Jesus refuted what they said there. He answered them---right after they accused him of "making himself equal to God"---by saying: "The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19) Jesus DID tell them by saying that that he was NOT claiming to be God. He said that he learned from God and did what the Father did first, to teach the Son. You are actually LYING when you post things like you did above.

 

[KingdomRose]

Thanks, Tambora!

With all these experts on board I wonder why no one has yet to answer my invitation:

Perhaps someone on this thread can explain why He said those things?​

All I hear are the crickets!

I have told you, but I bet you'll just ignore it. You say he said things that he did not say.

 

[KingdomRose]

And Jesus never corrected them.
Why do you?

It has just been shown to you that JESUS DID CORRECT THEM. Yet you say he didn't?

 

[drbrumley]

It has just been shown to you that JESUS DID CORRECT THEM. Yet you say he didn't?

link to it please...

 

[KingdomRose]

link to it please...

I quoted the scriptures and/or posted where the quotes by Jesus are found.

JOHN 5:19
JOHN 10:34-36


He clearly refuted their accusation against him that he claimed to be God or equal to God.

 

[daqq]

The word "compound" is not limited to just two things. And just because the example I gave only speaks of two things does not mean that the "compound unity" in regard to God is limited to just two entities.

Here we see a "compound unity" in regard to God:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image" (Gen1:26,27).​

We've been over that also: your God "knows" evil.
My heavenly Father YHWH does not know evil.

The God I worship knows the evil things which some men do:

"For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes" (Jer.16:17).

Does the God you worship not know the evil deeds of some men?

The Seven Eyes of YHWH are not YHWH Himself, but as it is written: the Eyes of YHWH.
Behold, upon one Stone whose name is Tzemach-Branch: Seven Eyes, (Zec 3:9).
And those Seven are the Eyes of YHWH sent forth into all His Land, (Zec 4:10).
And the same are the Seven Spirits before His throne, (Rev 5:6).
Just as Noah found grace in the Eyes of YHWH, (Gen 6:8).

Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Miykael, Sariel-Yisrael, Gabriel, Raamiel.

From a different thread where you were not:

EDIT: WHAT FOLLOWS BELOW IS FROM THIS POST

QUOTE:]The only legitimate conclusion is that they rendered Elohim as Theos in the LXX version of Genesis 1:26 because they were clearly using Theos as a replacement word, borrowed from Greek, for the intensive plural Elohim. That means they are using Theos as an intensive plural and the characteristics of the word therefore have to change in order for the understanding to come through in the translation. It is blatantly obvious, crying out for attention, and yet ignored by every commentator I can think of. What led me in this direction is an even more critical situation that reaches down to the very core of what any one of us here believes. Does our heavenly Father "know" evil? There really is only one place this can directly be derived from what is written. And this kind of "knowing" is the same intimate knowledge spoken of in Genesis 4:1 where it is written that Adam "knew" his wife Eve and she conceived. Does our heavenly Father "know" evil in this intimate way? This is intended for good so my own personal advice would be to not even answer if you are inclined to answer in the affirmative after reading what follows below. It would be better to contemplate, study, pray over such things, and come back to this at a later time as you feel led, (rather than to risk the possibility of blaspheming just so as to defend a doctrine or paradigm). So again I say, rhetorically, (and not expecting an answer especially if it might be in the affirmative), does our heavenly Father "know" evil? According to the Masoretic text they say He does but according to the Septuagint the Tetragrammaton was not originally in the pertinent text:

Genesis 3:22-23 LXX
22 και ειπεν ο θεος ιδου αδαμ γεγονεν ως εις εξ ημων του γινωσκειν καλον και πονηρον και νυν μηποτε εκτεινη την χειρα και λαβη του ξυλου της ζωης και φαγη και ζησεται εις τον αιωνα
23 και εξαπεστειλεν αυτον κυριος ο θεος εκ του παραδεισου της τρυφης εργαζεσθαι την γην εξ ης ελημφθη

Genesis 3:22-23 Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
22 And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever -
23 So the Lord God sent him forth out of the garden of Delight to cultivate the ground out of which he was taken.

Genesis 3:22-23 Restored Name KJV (Hebrew Text)
3:22 And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore YHWH Elohim sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

If from the Septuagint we restore ο θεος, (ho Theos), to Elohim, (which surely is what is meant), then the Septuagint is telling us that the Tetragrammaton was not in the Hebrew text of Genesis 3:22 which they used to render the Hebrew into Greek because Kurios is not in the Septuagint text. In addition, if this be true, it is possible and even more likely that the second portion of the verse becomes an interrogative, as if [the] Elohim were asking, "And now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever?" In other words [the] Elohim are shown as not fully knowing all that the Father knows but, unlike the Father, they apparently have known good and evil, and therefore there is a questioning among them. We therefore have a reading that is anywhere from one thousand to thirteen hundred years earlier than the current form of the Masoretic Hebrew text which did not contain the Name of the Father in Genesis 3:22 as the Masoretic now does. And what if indeed the second portion of verse twenty-two is an interrogative which the Father answers to the Elohim by sending the man forth from the garden of Eden? Perhaps this is why the statement which follows in the next verse commences with a word equivalent to "therefore" as this makes perfect sense:

Genesis 3:22-23
3:22 And [the] Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever?
3:23 Therefore YHWH Elohim sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

This gives us great insight into what those who rendered the Septuagint were thinking, (some three hundred years before the advent of Messiah and therefore without bias). It also gives us insight into what may have occurred with the Masoretic Hebrew text, which was compiled some 1000 to 1300 years later, for there are quite a few places where the Tetragrammaton appears to have been inserted into the text which are not found in the Septuagint. Were the Masoretes a little too overzealous in an effort to maintain the strict monotheism which separated them from the Christian doctrines of that time, (700-1000AD)? If they were [then clearly] they went too far in Genesis 3:22 because I know from what is written elsewhere that my heavenly Father does not know evil. When I saw this I saw Genesis 1:26. [END QUOTE.
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...throus-God-of-John-1-1&p=4710777&#post4710777

---

Here is the point yet again Jerry Shugart, (for you and I already discussed this).
Your preferred version derives from the Hebrew Masorete Text:

Genesis 3:22-23 Restored Name KJV (Hebrew Text)
3:22 And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Your preferred version of this passage inserts the Tetragrammaton, which is the Name of the Father, and therefore makes Him to intimately "know" evil because that is exactly how that same word is employed in the very next section where Adam "knows" Eve, his wife, and she conceives and brings forth Cain, and says, "I have gotten a man from YHWH", (Masorete Hebrew Text of Gen 4:1). However the LXX Septuagint does not read the same just as the passage quoted above does not read the same:

Genesis 3:22-23
22 And [the] Elohim said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat? and so he shall live forever?
23 So YHWH Elohim sent him forth out of the garden of Delight to cultivate the ground out of which he was taken.

It is either Elohim or the Elohim which apparently "know" both good and evil.
The Father YHWH Elohim does not "know" evil.

 

[marhig]

Let us look how Paul used the term "son of..." when speaking to a sorcerer named Elymas:

"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?" (Acts 13:10).​

Of course Paul was not saying that Elymas was a literal son of the devil. Instead, he was saying that the "nature" of Elymas is that of the devil. So when it is said that the Lord Jesus is the "son of man" what is being said that His nature is that of man. And when it is said that He is the "son of God" what is being said is that His very nature is that of God.

Let us look at the way that the Unitarians understood the term "son of man" in regard to the Lord Jesus. The say:

"He did not 'toot his own horn,' but instead called himself 'the son of man,' which, in the Aramaic language he spoke, meant 'a man'" (biblicalunitarian.com).​

Since in the Aramaic language the term "son of man" means "man" then we can understand that in the same language the term "son of God" means "God."



Oh, yes, by all means. He corrected them so good that they still wanted to kill Him:

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand" (Jn.10:36-39).​

He certainly was the very nature of God, seeing as he was full of the holy spirit and he was also the express image of God. But that doesn't make Christ Jesus God Almighty.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He certainly was the very nature of God, seeing as he was full of the holy spirit and he was also the express image of God. But that doesn't make Christ Jesus God Almighty.

Yes, He is the express image of God Almighty. Let us look at this passage which speaks of the Lord Jesus::

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:6-8).​

The Greek word translated "form" means "the form by which by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when His servants will see the One sitting in "the throne of God and of the Lamb" they will see the form of the Lord Jesus and at the same time they will be seeing the form of God:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

When His servants look at the Lamb they will see the external appearance of God. And it is impossible that anyone could see the Lamb that way unless He is in fact God.

Therefore, you are right when you say that the Lord Jesus is the express image of God Almighty.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Dan 7:9 "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

Now lets not twist that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

The Ancient of Days will be on the earth:

"Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests; And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee" (Jer.19:1-2).​

The following scene is a prophecy concerning the return of the Lord Jesus to the earth to rule in His kingdom:

"I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed" (Dan.7:13).​

At Matthew 25:31 the Lord Jesus says that when He comes to the earth then He will sit upon His throne. And the following verse shows Him reigning as King in His earthly Kingdom:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).
​

That verse is describing the same Kingdom spoken of here:

"And the LORD (JWHW) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one" (Zech.14:9).​

And the LORD's one name is:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt.28:19).​

 

[drbrumley]

The Ancient of Days will be on the earth:

"Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests; And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee" (Jer.19:1-2).​

The following scene is a prophecy concerning the return of the Lord Jesus to the earth to rule in His kingdom:

"I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed" (Dan.7:13).​

At Matthew 25:31 the Lord Jesus says that when He comes to the earth then He will sit upon His throne. And the following verse shows Him reigning as King in His earthly Kingdom:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).
​

That verse is describing the same Kingdom spoken of here:

"And the LORD (JWHW) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one" (Zech.14:9).​

And the LORD's one name is:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt.28:19).​

Powerful testimony :up:

 

[drbrumley]

Dan 7:9 "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

Now lets not twist that.

And don't twist this...+

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[daqq]

And don't twist this...+

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

It's already twisted, so what you really mean is, "please don't fix this". :rotfl:

 

[meshak]

It's already twisted, so what you really mean is, "please don't fix this". :rotfl:

I love your wit. You are so funny.

 

[Nihilo]

@freelight - Here is a perfect example of what I mean: @Nihilo









See what I mean? This poster decides what the Trinity is and how it was and is to be taught. Neither the scripture, nor the study of the scripture, nor the traditions of the early Trinitarian fathers and teachers, means anything to this poster. Nope, absolutely nothing, because "Jesus is YHWH", and, "He is YHWH made flesh, as John 1:14 (KJV) indicates", and apparently now "Immanu·El" translates into, "YHWH with us, as Matthew 1:23 (KJV) says", and nothing and no one can tell the poster any different; not even the fact that according to mainstream Trinitarianism the Father YHWH is non-corporeal Spirit, and not even the fact that none of the scripture passages quoted say anything close to what the poster claims they do. All you need to do is take the Tetragrammaton Name of the Father YHWH away from Him and give that Name to His Son, and cha-cha-cha-ching!!! pay dirt!! all of your theology problems are solved: you now have an updated new age grace God who abolished the "Old" with His "antiquated" commandments and Law. And anyone who tries to reason with facts is just trying to make a phony straw-man argument: end of story, don't rain on my parade!

Happy, happy, joy, joy . . . :cloud9: :baby:

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is YHWH? Confer Matthew 28:19 (KJV)

Do you think the Apostle Paul was aware of Numbers 6:24-26 (KJV) when he wrote 2nd Corinthians 13:14 (KJV)?

The Trinity was believed and taught before a single New Testament book was written, and the New Testament echos the doctrine throughout.

"This poster decides what the Trinity is and how it was and is to be taught."--You

Nah. I believe what the bishops, and all of them in communion with the successor of Peter, teach. The magisterium is the Lord's own personal choice as to how His Church shall be instructed in the One Christian faith (Ephesians 4:5 KJV).