Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[Jerry Shugart]

Also it has already been explained what Luke and therefore Paul meant because Elymas is also called Bar-Jesus which, as explained, means "son of Jesus", and therefore Elymas Bar-Jesus son of Jesus is a word sorcerer because he makes Jesus into the Father.

Then Thomas must have been deceived when He said this to the Lord Jesus:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

When His servants look at the Lamb they will see the external appearance of God. And it is impossible that anyone could see the Lamb that way unless He is in fact God. Besides that, since there is only ONE sitting in the "throne of God and the Lamb" then common sense dictates that the Lamb is God.

No.

Jesus is the Son of God.

Jesus is one person.(in normal language)

God is another person.


They are two, but one in unity. I, and My Father.

Jesus is filled with the fullness of God.

Jesus is anointed by God.

Jesus is the mediator between men and God.

Jesus was tempted, God can not be tempted.

Jesus died, God can not die.

Jesus is a man, God is not a man.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Then Thomas must have been deceived when He said this to the Lord Jesus:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

dagg will answer it better than I, but for goodness sake examine the text properly.

LA

 

[daqq]

Then Thomas must have been deceived when He said this to the Lord Jesus:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

There are many different usages of the word "Elohim", which is what Theos intends, being nothing more that a Greek loan word carrying with it all the meanings of Elohim for which it is used in translating the Greek Septuagint from the Hebrew. Thus the statement of Thomas creates no problem at all in my understanding because Messiah is no doubt the Elohim-Judge of the quickened and the dead. Do you suppose that you will not stand before the Elohim-Judges? Read the Torah. :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus is a man, God is not a man.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:5-8).​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

If you keep working hard I am sure that it won't be long until they promote you to the fourth grade.

My dad used to cite a quip to me when I used the word if as a kid.

It went like this.....


If the dog hadn't stopped to defacate he'd a caught the rabbit.

And if you hadn't stopped to smell it you'd a seen the chase.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:5-8).​

Nothing you posted refutes what I had said.

Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are many different usages of the word "Elohim", which is what Theos intends, being nothing more that a Greek loan word carrying with it all the meanings of Elohim for which it is used in translating the Greek Septuagint from the Hebrew.

In the LXX the Hebrew word JHWH is translated theos also.

And that is the Greek word translated "God" here:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (theos)" (Jn.20:28).​

 

[freelight]

What really matters.................

What really matters.................

I wonder why he keeps on with exactly what he said in the beginning, without any consideration to your arguments or mine. It is frustrating, in a debate or discussion, to make points...and yet the other person doesn't even listen to them, never mind give a reasonable reply.

It can be long tedious and frustrating yes,...because he doesn't consider whats plainly presented (or doesn't seem to see what is being articulated), but recircles back to the same points, even though they've been covered :idunno: - in such an exchange, the dialogue reaches an exhaustion point, and one has to creatively redirect the discussion.

As I shared, a Unitarian view is just as good if not better, than a Trinitarian one, but that depends on one's understanding of the significance of either view, and what affords a most logical, rational and spiritually sound perspective. Jesus is still the Christ, the SON of the living God. - and the Spirit will always bear witness to this essential truth. John is careful to confirm this at the end of his gospel, and his book of Revelation also emphatically affirms the Son's subordinance to the Father. The honoring of the Son is already a 'given' since the Son in every significant respect the express image and representation of the Father, so he inherits all the names of titles of 'God'! God and his Logos are ONE VOICE. - but he is ever subordinate, in service to the Most High. - the 'word' goes forth FROM 'God'.

Even if we deify Jesus to any degree while acknowledging his humanity as well (compound Jesus as you wish, as church councils have tried for centuries), even STILL....we respect the worship Jesus gives to his 'God' and 'Father'. Only 'God' is 'God', and will ever be the 'One' and 'Only' DEITY. All else is the creative offspring of 'God', and this is a relational truth, reject it or not. Jesus is BEGOTTEN. - one can entertain any concept of a Godhead or pre-existence of Jesus that they like,.....the Son is still Begotten. So,... I see a lot of this as unnecessary posturing or conceptualizing, which is fine,...but I question the time investment placed in it to the point where worship is given to a 'dogma' and not necessarily 'God'.

Sure, the Catholic/Protestant Church has their 'creeds' and what they deem 'orthodox',...but that's all it is,...their 'stamp' and 'approval' of their own theology or doctrine. If/when we stick to the essentials of true religion, and Jesus as the Son of God,...practicing the religion of love and wisdom, being 'perfect' in expressing love to all sentient beings, then we reflect and are 'perfect' like our Heavenly Father (Matt. 5). Love being our religion, is all that is essential, since love is the fulfilling of the law, the law of life itself. - with this you can deify Jesus or humanize Jesus all you like, it will not necessarily matter, unless you PRACTICE the Religion of Jesus. DO this, DO God's will, and you will live, you will see and enter the kingdom, here NOW....and for all ages to come.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

It was "us" who made man. Here we see a plurality in the Godhead:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image" (Gen1:26,27).​

Here God is spoken of as being a plurality. This is a case of a "compound unity," a concept which is spoken of here:

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery" (Eph.5:31-32).​

This concept is above the reasoning of our finite minds and that is why Paul calls it a "mystery." Nevertheless, the concept of "compound unity" is found in the Bible and that same concept applies to the Godhead.

 

[freelight]

You obviously don't have an intelligent, reasonable, meaningful and helpful thing to say, so you fall back on insults.

Unfortunately this is one of his tactics, which is questionable since one wonders how denigrating or ridiculing another glorifies 'God' or inspires a person to accept their own brand of theology, since its unkind, grieves one's spirit and devalues one's person. LOVE edifies. Also one who is humble does not judge demeaningly, neither condemns another to hell, which is often the practice of some religionists, which further seperates them from being true envoys of God, as they serve only their own 'theology' as 'God', and not 'God' in reality. - wisdom shows us the difference and guides us back to the true path of life and peace. - and this is all that is essential.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All else is the creative offspring of 'God', and this is a relational truth, reject it or not. Jesus is BEGOTTEN. - one can entertain any concept of a Godhead or pre-existence of Jesus that they like,.....the Son is still Begotten.

The following passage shows us exactly when the Lord Jesus was begotten. Notice that from the first verse quoted here to the last the subject under discussion is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David. Because he saith also in another [psalm], Thou wilt not give Thy Holy One to see corruption. For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: but he whom God raised up saw no corruption" (Acts 13:30-37).​

The Lord Jesus was begotten when He was resurrected from the dead.

 

[freelight]

Yes, He is the express image of God Almighty. Let us look at this passage which speaks of the Lord Jesus::

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:6-8).​

The Greek word translated "form" means "the form by which by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when His servants will see the One sitting in "the throne of God and of the Lamb" they will see the form of the Lord Jesus and at the same time they will be seeing the form of God:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

When His servants look at the Lamb they will see the external appearance of God. And it is impossible that anyone could see the Lamb that way unless He is in fact God.

Therefore, you are right when you say that the Lord Jesus is the express image of God Almighty.

'God' is not a 'lamb'.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

'God' is not a 'lamb'.

Why is there only ONE sitting in the "Throne of God and of the Lamb"?

I bet you cannot figure that out.

 

[freelight]

In case you didn't notice I support what I say with the Scriptures, not duct tape.

You ought to try Gorilla Tape,....much better/stronger :crackup: (seriously....in a material sense)

 

[daqq]

In the LXX the Hebrew word JHWH is translated theos also.

Please support your assertion with some examples.

And that is the Greek word translated "God" here:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (theos)" (Jn.20:28).​

As I said, Theos is nothing more than a Greek "loan word' used to render the character and qualities of the word Elohim. You say that Elohim is a "compound unity", correct? Why then do you not treat Theos in the same way, with fairness, honesty, and uprightness? Look how it is rendered in the following passage right from the beginning:

Genesis 1:26 OG LXX-Septuagint
1:26 και ειπεν ο θεος ποιησωμεν ανθρωπον κατ' εικονα ημετεραν και καθ' ομοιωσιν και αρχετωσαν των ιχθυων της θαλασσης και των πετεινων του ουρανου και των κτηνων και πασης της γης και παντων των ερπετων των ερποντων επι της γης
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_001.htm

Genesis 1:26 LXX-Septuagint Brenton English Translation
26 And God said, Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flying creatures of heaven, and over the cattle and all the earth, and over all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

Do you see the problem with your understanding of Theos? If you say that Elohim is a "compound unity" then you must in turn say the same about Theos in the above passage because that is exactly how it is used in the above passage which renders Elohim as "ο θεος" in the Greek LXX-Septuagint. This is a major problem with ignoring the Septuagint when rendering the Greek N/T. The above was rendered some three hundred years BEFORE the advent of Messiah and reveals the thinking and mindset of those Yhudim and Kohanim who rendered the Hebrew text into Greek in that time. And not only that but most all of the N/T Apostolic writings quote from the Septuagint, and this therefore reveals the thinking of the disciples and Apostles of Messiah also; and their thinking is clearly not your thinking.

 

[daqq]

Blahahahahaha, I see you posted this while I was posting:

It was "us" who made man. Here we see a plurality in the Godhead:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image" (Gen1:26,27).​

Here God is spoken of as being a plurality. This is a case of a "compound unity," a concept which is spoken of here:

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery" (Eph.5:31-32).​

This concept is above the reasoning of our finite minds and that is why Paul calls it a "mystery." Nevertheless, the concept of "compound unity" is found in the Bible and that same concept applies to the Godhead.

Please support your assertion with some examples.


As I said, Theos is nothing more than a Greek "loan word' used to render the character and qualities of the word Elohim. You say that Elohim is a "compound unity", correct? Why then do you not treat Theos in the same way, with fairness, honesty, and uprightness? Look how it is rendered in the following passage right from the beginning:

Genesis 1:26 OG LXX-Septuagint
1:26 και ειπεν ο θεος ποιησωμεν ανθρωπον κατ' εικονα ημετεραν και καθ' ομοιωσιν και αρχετωσαν των ιχθυων της θαλασσης και των πετεινων του ουρανου και των κτηνων και πασης της γης και παντων των ερπετων των ερποντων επι της γης
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_001.htm

Genesis 1:26 LXX-Septuagint Brenton English Translation
26 And God said, Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flying creatures of heaven, and over the cattle and all the earth, and over all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

Do you see the problem with your understanding of Theos? If you say that Elohim is a "compound unity" then you must in turn say the same about Theos in the above passage because that is exactly how it is used in the above passage which renders Elohim as "ο θεος" in the Greek LXX-Septuagint. This is a major problem with ignoring the Septuagint when rendering the Greek N/T. The above was rendered some three hundred years BEFORE the advent of Messiah and reveals the thinking and mindset of those Yhudim and Kohanim who rendered the Hebrew text into Greek in that time. And not only that but most all of the N/T Apostolic writings quote from the Septuagint, and this therefore reveals the thinking of the disciples and Apostles of Messiah also; and their thinking is clearly not your thinking.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Dang, you've been doing your own homework, and a lot of it! I see it appears we have the same Rabbi . . .

Indeed. :cheers:

 

[drbrumley]

Isaiah 40:3*Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
A voice of one crying out:
Prepare the way of the Lord in the wilderness;
make a straight highway for our God in the desert.

vs.

Matthew 3:3*Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
For he is the one spoken of through the prophet Isaiah, who said:
A voice of one crying out in the wilderness:
Prepare the way for the Lord;
make His paths straight!

Or

Psalm 24:10 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
10*
Who is He, this King of glory?
The Lord of Hosts,
He is the King of glory.Selah

vs

1 Corinthians 2:8 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
8*None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Or

Psalm 23:1 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
The Lord is my shepherd;
there is nothing I lack.

vs

John 10:11 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11*“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Or

Isaiah 44:6 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
This is what the Lord, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, says:
I am the first and I am the last.
There is no God but Me.

vs

Revelation 1:17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
17*When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. He laid His right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last,

and on and on and on and on....

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Isaiah 40:3*Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
A voice of one crying out:
Prepare the way of the Lord in the wilderness;
make a straight highway for our God in the desert.

vs.

Matthew 3:3*Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
For he is the one spoken of through the prophet Isaiah, who said:
A voice of one crying out in the wilderness:
Prepare the way for the Lord;
make His paths straight!

Or

Psalm 24:10 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
10*
Who is He, this King of glory?
The Lord of Hosts,
He is the King of glory.Selah

vs

1 Corinthians 2:8 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
8*None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Or

Psalm 23:1 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
The Lord is my shepherd;
there is nothing I lack.

vs

John 10:11 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11*“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Or

Isaiah 44:6 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
This is what the Lord, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, says:
I am the first and I am the last.
There is no God but Me.

vs

Revelation 1:17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
17*When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. He laid His right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last,

and on and on and on and on....

vs

1 Corinthians 15

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.