Jesus is God

Jesus is God


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God's Truth

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In Revelation 1: 8 God (he who sits on the throne) calls himself "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending... the Almighty. Then in Revelation 1: 11, Messiah calls himself "Alpha and Omega," the beginning and the end. Was he identifying himself as "he who sits on the throne?"

KJV Revelation 1: 11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, and, what you see write in a book, and send it to the seven congregations which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphea, and to Laodicea."

That it is Messiah here talking in Rev. 1: 11 there can be no doubt for in verse 17 he repeats, "I am the first and the last," and then in verse 18 he says "I am he that lives, and was dead:" So, we know of a certainty that Messiah called himself Alpha and Omega, and the first and the last, but he did not call himself "the beginning and the end" here. However in Revelation 3: 14 Messiah calls himself the "beginning of the creation of God," then in Revelation 22: 13 he calls himself the "beginning and the end."

Then people that say Messiah is God put forth the notion that when Messiah called himself "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end," he was calling himself God, since God called himself by the same titles in Revelation 1: 8. You have to love their persistence, but I'm about to show you how this cannot be true, because Revelation clearly distinguishes between "he who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb of God." First, lets discuss how God and Messiah could both be called by these same titles, and how, just because they both have the same title, it doesn't mean they are the same person.

To understand what Alpha and Omega and first and last mean, we need only understand that God is doing a work in the earth. He started it on day one of creation, and He's going to finish it. Of course God is the Alpha and Omega of his work, the beginning and the ending, but what about Messiah? How is he the beginning and the ending of God's work on the earth? Well, if you have to ask that you haven't been paying attention, and you have never read your Bible! Messiah IS God's work on the earth, and the culmination of His plan from the very beginning to the very ending! Messiah said it when he said in Revelation 3: 14, "the beginning of the creation of God."

How can God be a part of the "creation?" God and Messiah are both "Alpha and Omega," and "beginning and the ending."

We know that God was talking in Revelation 1: 8 when he said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending," then he says "he which was, and is, and is to come the Almighty." Also, in Revelation 1: 4 John says "grace be to you and peace from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before HIS THRONE." Thus, John starts out by talking about God almighty, continuing all the way down to verse 11. If any one wants to dispute this, just go get a King James Red Letter Edition. The words of Messiah are all in red, and you will see that verse 1: 8 is not in red. Thus, even the ancient scholars agree it's God talking in verse 1: 8 and not Messiah.

Then, in other places in Revelation, Messiah uses two of those same titles for Himself, "Alpha and Omega," and "the beginning and the ending." So, because Messiah uses two of the titles from verse 1: 8, everyone wants to assume that the other titles apply, too, including "the Almighty."

Just because God and Messiah are both Alpha and Omega and Beginning and Ending, does't mean they are both "the Almighty!" In Revelation Messiah never sits on the throne in Heaven! Revelation chapter 4 describes the throne, and it never mentions Messiah in there. Then in

Revelation 5 it says:
Revelation 5: 1
"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."
The one that opens the book according to verse 5 is "the Lamb of God, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah."

Revelation 5: 5
"And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof:"
The Lion, my friends, is Messiah! So, is Messiah sitting on the throne? He's already got the book in his hand then, and should open it any minute, right? WRONG!
Revelation 5: 7 "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."
This is the most stark proof that Messiah is not God, otherwise, God is taking the book from himself!

One more thing must be said about the titles "Alpha and Omega, and beginning and ending." These are titles of authority over the Earth. Messiah has been given rulership over the earth even as we speak! When a King hands over his authority on a matter to another, that person becomes the King's authority. Wherever the person who has been given the authority acts in this authority, he acts in the King's stead, and is treated as if the King himself were standing there! Right now, Messiah has been given God's authority over the Earth! (Like when Moses was giving a speech said he was God in Deu 29:6.)

Pay attention here...
1 Corinthians 15: 24- 27
"24 Then comes the end, when he (Messiah) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, until he has put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."

The word, excepted, used here is the greek word "ektos" which means "aside from," or "besides," or "other than," or "someone else." It's saying here clearly and with out mistake that God is "excepted" or is "someone other than" Messiah. They aren't the same.

1 Corinthians 15: 28
"28 And when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

In light of all the overwhelming evidence, how does anyone say that God and Messiah are the same person? Messiah is right now reigning in God's stead on the Earth, but there comes a day when he delivers the kingdom back up to God, and he himself will be a "subject" of the Lord of Heaven, God Almighty. How can any of this happen if they are the same person? :think:

From the studies of J. Dean
:poly::sherlock:
Paul


Just believe what the scriptures say.

Jesus says he is the First and the Last. That is what God calls Himself.

Believe.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Just believe what the scriptures say.

Jesus says he is the First and the Last. That is what God calls Himself.

Believe.

David was a shepherd, Moses was a shepherd, Jesus referred to himself as a shepherd (spiritually, but not physically) and God calls himself a shepherd.

Are all shepherds God?
 

God's Truth

New member
David was a shepherd, Moses was a shepherd, Jesus referred to himself as a shepherd (spiritually, but not physically) and God calls himself a shepherd.

Are all shepherds God?

God and Jesus are the same.

God and Jesus is the Shepherd.

God and Jesus is the Redeemer.

God and Jesus is the Savior.

God and Jesus is the Rock.
 

Omniskeptical

BANNED
Banned
Your claim is that the gospels are clear that the holy spirit is God the father doing miracles, so lets stay with that claim before we move on.

There is no verse that states clearly that the Holy Spirit is God the father doing miracles, so you are starting with a false premise.

So, what do the gospels clearly state?

Luke 11:13
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?​

Jesus said that the heavenly Father would give the Holy Spirit to those that ask.

Jesus is saying that someone else, the heavenly Father, would give something else, the Holy Spirit, to those that ask.
Jesus did not say Jesus would give Jesus to those that ask.

So, what was Jesus talking about when He said the Father would give the Holy Spirit?
The answer is found in the Old Testament:

Exodus 31:1-3
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,​

Both Jesus and God say that being filled with the Holy Spirit will provide the person with abilities that they wouldn't have without the Holy Spirit in them.

This is also seen in the book of Acts:

Acts 8:14-20
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.​

Have you checked Luke where is conceived by the power of Holy Spirit?
 

Omniskeptical

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Banned
The father is the Holy Spirit? You sound like God's Truth.
He sounds like this in Matthew 1:8 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost;" or Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Care thou to deny it?
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
He sounds like this in Matthew 1:8 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost;" or Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Care thou to deny it?

Yep, you don't comprehend what you read. She was of child by the Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit was not the child.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Yep, you don't comprehend what you read. She was of child by the Holy Spirit.

Apostles' Creed

(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty;
(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
(3) Who was born of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary;
(4) Crucified under Pontius Pilate and buried;
(5) The third day He rose again from the dead,
(6) He ascended into Heaven,
(7) Sitteth at the right hand of the Father,
(8) Whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
(9) And in the Holy Ghost,
(10) The Holy Church,
(11) The forgiveness of sins;
(12) The resurrection of the body.

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm)
 

Pierac

New member
Just believe what the scriptures say.

Jesus says he is the First and the Last. That is what God calls Himself.

Believe.

Moses said he was God.... perhaps should you follow your same advice with that one? :think:

Scripture readings...
Moses claiming to be GOD = 1
Jesus claiming to be GOD = 0

Maybe you better start sucking up to Moses?? ;)

BTY what are you calling scripture? I actually have the Novum Testamentum Graece 27th edition... Same as the UBS 4th edition except for the apparatus . All you have is translations! Do you really know how your so call "scriptures say" differ (TRANSLATIONS OF MEN) from each other??


You need to change your avatar's name to (Man's Truth)! I already showed you what's in a name here....

:poly::sherlock:
Paul
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Just believe what the scriptures say.

Jesus says he is the First and the Last. That is what God calls Himself.

Believe.


Friend, you would do well to reread Pierac's notes. He is showing you what is written. We can all learn from each other. Do not discard what could be truth.


Posted from the TOL App!
 

God's Truth

New member
Moses said he was God.... perhaps should you follow your same advice with that one? :think:

Scripture readings...
Moses claiming to be GOD = 1
Jesus claiming to be GOD = 0

Maybe you better start sucking up to Moses?? ;)

BTY what are you calling scripture? I actually have the Novum Testamentum Graece 27th edition... Same as the UBS 4th edition except for the apparatus . All you have is translations! Do you really know how your so call "scriptures say" differ (TRANSLATIONS OF MEN) from each other??


You need to change your avatar's name to (Man's Truth)! I already showed you what's in a name here....

:poly::sherlock:
Paul

Just think, you think you have a better Bible, but you still do not know the truth.

Jesus reveals himself to those who get his teachings and obeys them.

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."
 

Daniel1611

New member
Is Jesus the savior?

In Isaiah 43:11, God said "Besides Me there is no savior."

If you deny the multitude of Bible verses that say that Jesus Christ is God, you're not an intellectual. You're a fool and an antichrist.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Is Jesus the savior?

In Isaiah 43:11, God said "Besides Me there is no savior."

If you deny the multitude of Bible verses that say that Jesus Christ is God, you're not an intellectual. You're a fool and an antichrist.

Proves that Jesus is God.
 
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