Jesus is God !

[NWL]

can the alpha and omega die?

He can. He is God come down from heaven to dwell among us. He can, and He did.

I hope you see the stupidity in your response, there are two things God cannot do, he cannot die nor lie, you just stated he can which shows your level of biblical knowledge.

You have admitted God is not eternal since he can die, therefore you unwittingly deny every verse which states God is eternal which in turn means you worship an un-almighty God who is able to perish just as man can.

can the first and the last die? No.

Yes, and yes again. He said He did, and was raised bodily from the dead.

Again you deny that God is eternal! An eternal God cannot die, you can't see the illogical inconsistency in your belief system. I'm sure if I ask "Is God eternal" you would answer yes, but at the same time you also say "God can die".

He always was and always will be. Did He stop being God when He took on the form of a burning bush? Or a pillar of cloud?

God wasn't at the burning bush, he had an angel acting as his representative which was clearly clarified to us in the NT (Acts 7:30).

It's a question you can't answer, because you deny Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.​

What makes you think I can't answer? I fully know in what sense Jesus is the F&L, why give you solid food when you're struggling to drink milk.

Isaiah is not proof Jesus is God being part of a trinity, look at the context of Isaiah 9:6, firstly it states "his name will be called", can I say regarding Queen Elizabeth of the GB that she will be called the Queen of England if she already IS the Queen of England? No, such a statement wouldn't make sense unless she wasn't the queen of England and I'm making a reference to her future. Likewise stating Jesus "will be called" implies he isn't what he one day "will" be called.

Furthermore the trinity doctrine teaches Jesus is NOT the Father but that all persons of the trinity are three distinct and separate persons, if that is true, then explain why Isaiah 9:6 states Jesus IS the Father to me?

Irrefutable? That's a giveaway ...showing you have it fixed solidly in your mind that Jesus cannot be God. Don't tell me...you're a JW, aren't you?

Well, let's try actually reading what the text says. Check out all the and's. There isn't just the one separating the ONE from HIS throne, and the Jesus Christ as you would hope to slide through.

Revelation 1:4-5
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,​

Nope, verses 4 and 5 are quite clear. John is speaking for the ONE, and for the Seven Spirits that are before HIS THRONE. He is the that ONE from Gen. to Revelation. Jesus Christ is the entire list you see there. The First and the Last, the faithful witness...from Him and unto Him.

Haha! Where else in scripture do we find Jesus as the seven spirits? Scripture please. More than one persons sits on the throne, we see the Father, by right sits on the throne but allows other persons to also occupy it, Jesus stated "To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Revelation 3:21). Also there is more than one person before his throne, this includes angels and elders (rev 5:6)

Your explanation of Rev 1:4,5 is wrong. Jesus being “the Faithful Witness” (Rev 3:14), “the firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:18), and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth" (1 Timothy 6:15) are epithets of Jesus and can all be linked to where he is referred to those things in other scripture. This is completely lacking with with "the seven spirits" or “the One who is and who was and who is coming" which shows they aren't epithets but rather referring to unique persons. We can also see this when looking at the Greek, John uses the word "apo" (from) when referring to “the One who is and who was and who is coming", again with "the seven spirits" and again with "Jesus" but not when stating the epithets of Jesus in v5, which again, shows that all the things mentioned in v4,5 weren't merely ephitets of one being who sits on the throne. The things mentioned about Jesus after v5 relate only to Jesus and not the first two person(s) mentioned in v4.

You also contradict yourself when you say Jesus is that one who sits on the throne, if that is the case then how does he takes the scroll out of the hand of that one sitting on that throne if he "is" the one sitting on the throne!?

(Revelation 5:1) "..And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll... And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals? But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals... And I saw standing in the midst of the throne... a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered...At once he came forward and took it out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne.."

 

[NWL]

You are mistaken. There is no separation.

You're denying what the scripture states, the verse clearly has "the One who is and who was and who is coming" as separate from "Jesus" in Rev 1:4,5, just saying they aren't separate when the verse clearly reads that way is unfortunately not proof.

 

[Bright Raven]

You're denying what the scripture states, the verse clearly has "the One who is and who was and who is coming" as separate from "Jesus" in Rev 1:4,5, just saying they aren't separate when the verse clearly reads that way is unfortunately not proof.

You are a non-believer. You use a Bible that has been written by tampering with the original. You do not believe in the Triune God which is necessary for salvation and you are telling me that I deny what Scripture says. I don't think so. Once you come to know and accept the truth, I will look at and evaluate what you have say. Until then as far as I am concerned what you have to say holds no credence.

 

[meshak]

You are a non-believer. You use a Bible that has been written by tampering with the original. You do not believe in the Triune God which is necessary for salvation and you are telling me that I deny what Scripture says. I don't think so. Once you come to know and accept the truth, I will look at and evaluate what you have say. Until then as far as I am concerned what you have to say holds no credence.

why do you so stubbornly hold on to traditional teaching?

just saying.

 

[Bright Raven]

why do you so stubbornly hold on to traditional teaching?

just saying.

Because the Bible tells me to.

1 Peter 3:15 New International Version (NIV)

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

 

[glorydaz]

I hope you see the stupidity in your response, there are two things God cannot do, he cannot die nor lie, you just stated he can which shows your level of biblical knowledge.

I see dishonesty is your MO. Yep, you're a Jehovah's Witness.

God CAN come in the flesh as a human being....and die.
It's simply above your pay grade to understand spiritual things.

 

[Bright Raven]

I see dishonesty is your MO. Yep, you're a Jehovah's Witness.

God CAN come in the flesh as a human being....and die.
It's simply above your pay grade to understand spiritual things.

Acts 20:28 New International Version (NIV)

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

 

[meshak]

Hey, BR,

You know very well most non-trin here are not JW. Do you recognize those trins' false witnessing?

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. And false witness is not a good fruit.

Jesus did not say we know them by their doctrines.

 

[Bright Raven]

Hey, BR,

You know very well most non-trin here are not JW. Do you recognize those trins' false witnessing?

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. And false witness is not a good fruit.

Jesus did not say we know them by their doctrines.

Their fruit flows out of their doctrine. That means that their fruit will be what the watchtower society says it is.

 

[meshak]

Their fruit flows out of their doctrine. That means that their fruit will be what the watchtower society says it is.

Fruit of spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control.

there is no men's doctrine there.

Jesus' main messages are how we produce godly fruit.

 

[Bright Raven]

Fruit of spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control.

there is no men's doctrine there.

Jesus' main messages are how we produce godly fruit.

Jesus main message is that He is the sin bearer of the world.

 

[meshak]

Jesus main message is that He is the sin bearer of the world.

suit yourself.


good day.

 

[glorydaz]

Their fruit flows out of their doctrine. That means that their fruit will be what the watchtower society says it is.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I'm sure glad I scrolled down first, or I'd have looked the fool once again for saying what had already been said. :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

Fruit of spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control.

there is no men's doctrine there.

Jesus' main messages are how we produce godly fruit.

Out of the heart the mouth speaks. You know what the fruit of the Spirit is, so you are placing your false plastic fruit out there on the table and pretending like it's yours. :rotfl:

Thus we see this fake "niceness" coming from the plastic fruit bearers. :banana:

 

[Bright Raven]

Out of the heart the mouth speaks. You know what the fruit of the Spirit is, so you are placing your false plastic fruit out there on the table and pretending like it's yours. :rotfl:

Thus we see this fake "niceness" coming from the plastic fruit bearers. :banana:

Isn't that sort of like having a plastic Jesus on the dashboard of your car?

 

[Bright Raven]

Seriously, Jesus is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. His being God is the essential of anyone who has a belief in God. He must be confronted head on. Why are people so adamant in saying that He is not who He says He is?

 

[beloved57]

Many claim to believe on Jesus Christ for Salvation, yet they will not acknowledge that He's God. They will insist that Hes the Son of God, which He is, but still deny Hes God. He's revealed in scripture as 100 % God and 100% Man in His Mysterious complex person. One of the scriptures I believe that witness to Him being 100% God is the quality /attribute He is said to have in Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

How any other being besides God can uphold all things by the word of His Power, it would have to be more than One Almighty God.

The word uphold is the greek word pheró which means:

I carry, bear, bring; I conduct, lead; perhaps: I make publicly known.

Its said to mean in this scripture:

to bear up, i. e. uphold (keep from falling): φέρων τά πάντα τῷ ῤήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ, of God (the Son) the preserver of the universe, Hebrews 1:3
How can One be such, the preserver of the Universe, not Just this World we live upon, but of the Galaxies and other planets in our solar system !

Job 7:20

I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

That very well can be Christ, the Son of God, who also is God here !

Ps 36:6

Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O Lord, thou preservest man and beast.

Neh 9:6

Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Now this a conflict If the One here being addressed The Lord Alone, that made heaven and preserveth all things, isn't Christ the Son of God of Heb 1:3 !

 

[Nanja]

Many claim to believe on Jesus Christ for Salvation, yet they will not acknowledge that He's God. They will insist that Hes the Son of God, which He is, but still deny Hes God. He's revealed in scripture as 100 % God and 100% Man in His Mysterious complex person. One of the scriptures I believe that witness to Him being 100% God is the quality /attribute He is said to have in Heb 1:3

3 [FONT="]Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and [U][B]upholding all things by the word of his power[/B][/U], when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

How any other being besides God can uphold all things by the word of His Power, it would have to be more than One Almighty God.

The word uphold is the greek word [/FONT][/COLOR] pheró which means:

I carry, bear, bring; I conduct, lead; perhaps: I make publicly known.

Its said to mean in this scripture:

to bear up, i. e. uphold (keep from falling): φέρων τά πάντα τῷ ῤήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ,[B] of God (the Son) the preserver of the universe, [URL="http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/1-3.htm"]Hebrews 1:3[/URL][/B]

How can One be such, the preserver of the Universe, not Just this World we live upon, but of the Galaxies and other planets in our solar system !

Job 7:20

[FONT="]I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee,[U][B] O thou [/B][/U][/FONT][/COLOR][B][U][B]preserver of men?[/B][/U] why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?[/B]

That very well can be Christ, the Son of God, who also is God here !

Ps 36:6

[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O [/FONT][FONT="]Lord[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="], thou [/FONT]preservest man and beast.

Neh 9:6

[FONT="]Thou, [B]even thou, art [/B][/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]Lord[/FONT][/B][FONT="] alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou [/FONT]preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Now this a conflict If the One here being addressed The Lord Alone, that made heaven and preserveth all things, isn't Christ the Son of God of Heb 1:3 !

Amen, no question about it. God the Son Jesus Christ is Almighty God, the "WHO" of Heb. 1:3 upholding [keep from falling] all things by the Word of His Power: The Creator; Maker of all things Col. 1:16, and The Preserver of all things Job 7:20 KJV; Ps. 36:6; Neh. 9:6.

beloved57

Now this a conflict If the One here being addressed The Lord Alone, that made heaven and preserveth all things, isn't Christ the Son of God of Heb 1:3 !

So True !

Is. 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Is. 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,


And Jesus taught that there is One God:


Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

 

[keypurr]

:nono: You can never know 'too much.' I have a bit of sympathy for the Unitarian and see some of your dilemma more clearly having debated this awhile. While I can sympathize, I cannot dismiss ANY scripture. John 1:1 and 20:28 AND the Apostle Paul calling Jesus God when the Israelites 'tempted Him.' There is NO knowledge that 'can' take that away, therefore you CANNOT know too much. What you can do is come to God and say "I'm still trying to honor Who You actually are, Lord. Help me know you."

Too much? :nono: You can't know enough, nor can I. Ephesians 3:17-19 Ephesians 2:20,21 summarizes that and has been in my sig for a good many years now.

Peacey

Your still in total darkness Lon. Your blinded by what you have been taught. You have no understanding of John 1 or Heb 1, Col 1:15. Like,"firstborn of all creatures", and others.
Any, I pray that some day you will have the courage to discard the dribble you learned in college and open your mind to really find who God and his son are.
Peace to all my friends and foes, may YHWH enlighten your hearts will love.

 

[Lon]

Peacey

Your...

<cough> Ahem.

...still in total darkness Lon. Your blinded by what you have been taught.

"You're" You are blinded by lack of education. If you can't get your OWN language right, you certainly have little to teach me. I'm a bit surprised you came back to this, posted almost two months ago now.

No. You are ignorant, thus in darkness. You don't even know the difference between your and you're lain: You WON'T be teaching anybody and your feeble attempt drops on deaf ears because of it. In the SAME WAY you mess up English, you also mess up reading comprehension of the Bible. There are no short-cuts. One equals the other and it means, frankly, you need to listen to your betters. You aren't bright enough and it shows. It is just like a child who can't do algebra, trying to tell people algebra doesn't exist. You are that far behind.

You have no understanding of John 1 or Heb 1, Col 1:15. Like,"firstborn of all creatures", and others.

No, frankly, I haven't met the Arian smart enough and thank you. Sorry, it is just a fact. It is your (possessive) and you're (state of being). When you know the difference, we'll talk. Until then? You like every other Arian I've ever talked to have the same poor language skills.

Any, I pray that some day you will have the courage to discard the dribble you learned in college and open your mind to really find who God and his son are.

<cough> "Drivel." "anyway." :doh: LOL, Keypurr. I'm sorry, YOU look foolish and ignorant for all this. After 2 months you should have left it alone instead of making yourself look ignorant and uneducated for the dismal effort.

Peace to all my friends and foes, may YHWH enlighten your hearts will love.

Peace or "peacey?" "will" or with? My prayer is that you will realize you aren't nearly as smart as the rest of us.
There is no Arian that can keep up academically, never has been. You are wrong. End of story.