Jesus Christ is God Almighty, Jehovah

[freelight]

Holy Breath......

Holy Breath......

No, But you can lie to God!

Acts 5:3-4 King James Version (KJV)

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

All this passage shows is that to lie against God's Spirit is to lie against God. God and his Spirit are indivisible. So no big revelation there.

See previous commentary. Its fine to relate to God in his various personalities, and recognize that other spirit-souls have personalities too. God is a divine Personality, and more, and is the father of all 'personalilty' and all personalities. God also expresses himself thru his Spirit as living breath, dynamic power, energy, regeneration, quickening, and all the various gifts of the Spirit. Spirit is also breath, energy, power, life, consciousness.

 

[musterion]

Anti-Trinitarians always ignore this.

 

[daqq]

Anti-Trinitarians always ignore this.

You ignored what came before you:

Why can you not hear what Yeshua says? He says the Logos-Word that he speaks is the Judge, not the man Yeshua himself, the man Yeshua judges no one, and likewise the Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son: the Logos-Word of Elohim is the Seeker and the Judge, and the Son, and the Son of man who descended from the heavens in corporeal-bodily form as a dove.

Are you willing and capable of following very simple systematic logic? The heavens and the earth will pass away but the words of Messiah spoken through the mouth of Yeshua will not pass away. Therefore these very simple and clear emphatic statements from Yeshua which follow below are absolute doctrine. Please give it your best attempt to follow the very simple systematic logic in the following passages and statements from the Master himself:

Here is the perfect logic behind what I say, Freelight, taken straight from the Testimony of Yeshua himself in the very same Gospel account which so many use to supposedly prove that the man Yeshua or Jesus is "God Almighty born into human flesh" as they say. But when we take certain key statements of the Master himself, as follows, the error of Trinity is clearly exposed by the Testimony of Yeshua himself. The first key statement is that Yeshua says his words are SPIRIT, and even this should be enough to fully support what I have said, but if you follow the logic laid out in sequence from the statements below there is absolutely no denying the outcome of these clear emphatic statements.

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up [to] where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua also states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Memra-Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but-contrariwise [it is] of the Father who sent me.

The Memra-Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos-Word that I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no one knew but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Logos-Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Son of Elohim and Son of Man is the Memra-Logos-Word who descended from the heavens in pneumatikos-spiritual somatiko-bodily form as a dove and abode-remained upon-within the man Yeshua throughout his ministry and Golgotha. No one has seen Elohim at any time because spoken word cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. The "new covenant" new Spirit, (Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, 36:26), is therefore the most holy Word of the Testimony of Yeshua. Anyone claiming to have "the Holy Spirit" but not having and upholding the Testimony of Yeshua in uprightness is therefore deceived.

Once again the Testimony of Yeshua:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the LOGOS-WORD that I have spoken, THAT ONE shall judge him in the last day [Rev 19:11-16].

The Father judges no one.
The man Yeshua judges no one, (and his words shall not pass away).
The Father has committed all judgment unto the Son.
The Son is therefore the only Judge.

The Father is not the Judge.
The man Yeshua is not the Judge.
The Logos-Word that Yeshua spoke is the Judge.
The man Yeshua therefore cannot be the Logos-Word.
The Logos-Word is the only begotten Elohim-Son of Elohim, (John 1:18).

Edit-Addendum:

PS: This is Jerry Shugart's thread and yet he also ignored the post now quoted again herein above. Moreover, when I brought up this fact in another of his newer threads, (here), he feigned as if I might be delusional and acted like he had no clue what I was talking about, (here), as if the poor soul is not even capable of clicking on a link to find out where something was said even when it was said in one of his own threads! @Jerry Shugart

:rotfl:

In my experience it is the Oneness Doctrine adherents such as yourself and Jerry, who claim "Jesus is YHWH", (the Father), who are truly the most egregious offenders when it comes to ignoring the Testimony of Yeshua and any other scripture passages which refute your doctrine.

 

[keypurr]

So can you lie to power? Does a power talk? Can power be angry at people?

NO!!!

We've already refuted your argument that the Holy Spirit is just a force or power of God, so stop using it.

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If God is talking to someone through the Holy Spirit and the person lies, who is he really lieing to?

The Holy Spirit, or God.

Think about that.


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[freelight]

freelight bytes........

freelight bytes........

In my experience it is the Oneness Doctrine adherents such as yourself and Jerry, who claim "Jesus is YHWH", (the Father), who are truly the most egregious offenders when it comes to ignoring the Testimony of Yeshua and any other scripture passages which refute your doctrine.

Doctrinal grid-locks can be hard to unwind - Funny how there is more of a modalist twist being promoted with the emphatic claim that 'Jesus is YHWH', since it puts Jesus in the position of being 'The Father-God', if indeed to Jesus and his disciples, they worshipped the Father-God, the One True God whose name they were taught to believe was 'YHWH'. YHWH was ever the one incorporeal Deity who would raise up a Messiah to rule on David's throne. If Jesus is YHWH this contorts the traditional orthodox Trinitarian profession a bit, since its strongly emphasized that the Son is NOT the Father, the Father is NOT the Son, putting the Holy Spirit in his own class of personhood too, and so on. They are careful not to con-fuse persons!, but appear to entertain a subtle form of modalism anyways, perhaps unknowingly. Isn't YHWH the Father? Or is it just that Jesus is a man indwelt, anointed and empowered by YHWH? :think:

Jesus was very clear to differentiate himself from His Father-God. And in a trinitarian model, the Father and Son are EVER 2 seperate distinct personalities. If Jesus is actually YHWH of the OT, then who is the Father, and where does he come into the picture, but to be perhaps some nebulous Spirit-presence in the background anointing and inspiring Jesus behind the scenes? The Father remains essentially a transcendental being much like the Holy Spirit, but with a Fatherly aspect of sorts, being the Originating life-force from whence all other personalities spring and take their forms,....after all, He is the FATHER of all. Perhaps the name 'YHWH' applies to all 3 persons simultaneously?

One could equally just take a polymorphous view, some kind of 'modalism' since hey, there's only one eternal essence or substance anyways,...its all just 'God' taking on various modes or forms. This is basically a universal principle among most occult teachings and metaphysical schools who hold 'God' is the source and substance of all things and beings anyways, nothing new as far as ancient wisdom and new age teachings goes. Such is the basic metaphysics at heart, so that of course Jesus is one of the visible forms of 'God', an 'agent' of God,....whether you take him to be the main primary agent (Son/Logos/Christ), or just one of many serving the divine plan in different dispensations.

All that exists is God and his activities. There is one infinite Spirit-essence, while all substances and forms derive from this original primordial reality. Understanding this, we see the unity of truth behind all forms, that spirit alone is the life, breath and energy of being. - such transformations may lead to decay or facilitate the soul towards life/immortality, such depends on the conditions of free will and proclivities of choice. Just as long as Jesus serves as the image, symbol, prototype, exemplar and veritable guide to lasting life into the ages,...he will have served his ministry, in this life and in the life hereafter.

 

[daqq]

Doctrinal grid-locks can be hard to unwind - Funny how there is more of a modalist twist being promoted with the emphatic claim that 'Jesus is YHWH', since it puts Jesus in the position of being 'The Father-God', if indeed to Jesus and his disciples, they worshipped the Father-God, the One True God whose name they were taught to believe was 'YHWH'. YHWH was ever the one incorporeal Deity who would raise up a Messiah to rule on David's throne. If Jesus is YHWH this contorts the traditional orthodox Trinitarian profession a bit, since its strongly emphasized that the Son is NOT the Father, the Father is NOT the Son, putting the Holy Spirit in his own class of personhood too, and so on. They are careful not to con-fuse persons!, but appear to entertain a subtle form of modalism anyways, perhaps unknowingly. Isn't YHWH the Father? Or is it just that Jesus is a man indwelt, anointed and empowered by YHWH? :think:

Jesus was very clear to differentiate himself from His Father-God. And in a trinitarian model, the Father and Son are EVER 2 seperate distinct personalities. If Jesus is actually YHWH of the OT, then who is the Father, and where does he come into the picture, but to be perhaps some nebulous Spirit-presence in the background anointing and inspiring Jesus behind the scenes? The Father remains essentially a transcendental being much like the Holy Spirit, but with a Fatherly aspect of sorts, being the Originating life-force from whence all other personalities spring and take their forms,....after all, He is the FATHER of all. Perhaps the name 'YHWH' applies to all 3 persons simultaneously?

One could equally just take a polymorphous view, some kind of 'modalism' since hey, there's only one eternal essence or substance anyways,...its all just 'God' taking on various modes or forms. This is basically a universal principle among most occult teachings and metaphysical schools who hold 'God' is the source and substance of all things and beings anyways, nothing new as far as ancient wisdom and new age teachings goes. Such is the basic metaphysics at heart, so that of course Jesus is one of the visible forms of 'God', an 'agent' of God,....whether you take him to be the main primary agent (Son/Logos/Christ), or just one of many serving the divine plan in different dispensations.

All that exists is God and his activities. There is one infinite Spirit-essence, while all substances and forms derive from this original primordial reality. Understanding this, we see the unity of truth behind all forms, that spirit alone is the life, breath and energy of being. - such transformations may lead to decay or facilitate the soul towards life/immortality, such depends on the conditions of free will and proclivities of choice. Just as long as Jesus serves as the image, symbol, prototype, exemplar and veritable guide to lasting life into the ages,...he will have served his ministry, in this life and in the life hereafter.

Perhaps it may be sort of a modalist twist but either way the Oneness doctrine is not traditional Trinitarianism because it clearly makes the Son to be the Father just as the image file above from Musterion shows, which clearly says, "Jesus is YHWH". There are plentiful Tanach passages which loudly proclaim that YHWH is our heavenly Father and even desires that we call Him our Father, (which is enough even for traditional Trinitarians to know that the Oneness doctrine is untrue). Such doctrine violates even the most basic principles and symbolism of the relationship between a father and son. In relationship to a son the father is always portrayed as the giver while a son is always the receiver, (in things which come from his father), as shown in many examples even down to inheritance. Everything that Messiah Yeshua has, he received from the Father, including "all power in heavens and in earth", and his inheritance, (of which those in Messiah are joint-heirs), and so on and so on: everything came from the Father. Yeshua even says that the Father is greater than himself. It really cannot be any clearer than that one simple statement, (John 14:28).

 

[musterion]

Daqq ignored this while pretending not to ignore it.

 

[daqq]

Daqq ignored this while pretending not to ignore it.

If I had ignored what it says I would not have been able to respond in the way that I did. :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Plurality of persons could be anything from 2 to a host of heavenly beings...including angels of different rank

When we look at what is said here it is evident that the plurality exists with God:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his own image" (Gen.1:26-27).​

In verse 27 it is only God who created man. So in verse 26 the pronouns "us" and "our" must be in regard to God because it is "us" who made man.

So it is obvious that the pronoun "us" does not refer to angels of different rank.

 

[freelight]

Plurality of Majesty,...a manifold One.......

Plurality of Majesty,...a manifold One.......

When we look at what is said here it is evident that the plurality exists with God:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his own image" (Gen.1:26-27).​

In verse 27 it is only God who created man. So in verse 26 the pronouns "us" and "our" must be in regard to God because it is "us" who made man.

So it is obvious that the pronoun "us" does not refer to angels of different rank.

Traditionally, a very common view among Jewish commentators is that this does refer to a heavenly council or company, which would be the 'angels', 'sons of God' already apart of God's company. Traditional orthodox Jews would never entertain there being 3 separate distinct personalities all existing as One God, as 'God' is ever heralded as a Singular Deity, having of course a plurality of majesty, a manifold glory, yet ever being ONE. Important to see it how the Jews themselves have anciently and modernly translated/interpreted their own scriptures, even if you choose to believe an orthodox Christian concept of the Trinity was a later defined revelation of a 'Godhead' existing there all the time within the One Deity worshipped by the Jews.

Perhaps more on this later, and also in your newer thread on the "us" factor

 

[freelight]

Jesus honoring His Father.........

Jesus honoring His Father.........

Daqq ignored this while pretending not to ignore it.

That 'chart' is only a depiction of beliefs and allusions for those who believe Jesus is YHWH. Not all followers of Jesus believe such.

That Jesus is portrayed as the 'image' of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation, firstborn from the dead, Son of Man, Son of God is enough for some, which does not make him 'God', but only the offspring, emenation, expression, reflection and representation/representative of 'God'. It becomes a debate over image, substance and form really,....but when considered in its purest essence as a generation of 'God', its all really 'God' anyways, just an extension thereof. 'God' is the only reality from which any image, substance or form could derive - only in this sense is Jesus divine (we could argue over his exact 'constitution' as church councils have done thru the ages). - we are also the 'offspring' of God, even if you like to posit there being a 'difference' of some kind, Jesus having a 'special' and 'unique' kind of Sonship relationally speaking.

John says a belief in the Father-God who sent Jesus his SON, is adequate enough to grant one eternal life (life into the ages), and this appears a good place for starters before any creative additions. One has to research their own beliefs to see if such a 'belief' or 'position' about Jesus (in whatever human or divine figuration) is even necessary, when belief in him being the SON of God is at least fundamental or essential according to John's testimony. A 'Son' is always a 'generation' or 'offspring' of a Father, ever subordinate therefore in person and rank, but certainly inherits all the Father has, especially if a faithful steward. Jesus is ever honoring his Father, and as you honor him, he ever points you to the invisible Infinite Father-God, who alone is the most Original and High God, from whence all things and beings spring. There is no other. Doesn't Jesus encourage us to worship his God and Father in spirit and truth, who is 'Our Father' as well?

 

[JudgeRightly]

That 'chart' is only a depiction of beliefs and allusions for those who believe Jesus is YHWH. Not all followers of Jesus believe such.

That Jesus is portrayed as the 'image' of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation, firstborn from the dead, Son of Man, Son of God is enough for some, which does not make him 'God', but only the offspring, emenation, expression, reflection and representation/representative of 'God'. It becomes a debate over image, substance and form really,....but when considered in its purest essence as a generation of 'God', its all really 'God' anyways, just an extension thereof. 'God' is the only reality from which any image, substance or form could derive - only in this sense is Jesus divine (we could argue over his exact 'constitution' as church councils have done thru the ages). - we are also the 'offspring' of God, even if you like to posit there being a 'difference' of some kind, Jesus having a 'special' and 'unique' kind of Sonship relationally speaking.

John says a belief in the Father-God who sent Jesus his SON, is adequate enough to grant one eternal life (life into the ages), and this appears a good place for starters before any creative additions. One has to research their own beliefs to see if such a 'belief' or 'position' about Jesus (in whatever human or divine figuration) is even necessary, when belief in him being the SON of God is at least fundamental or essential according to John's testimony. A 'Son' is always a 'generation' or 'offspring' of a Father, ever subordinate therefore in person and rank, but certainly inherits all the Father has, especially if a faithful steward. Jesus is ever honoring his Father, and as you honor him, he ever points you to the invisible Infinite Father-God, who alone is the most Original and High God, from whence all things and beings spring. There is no other. Doesn't Jesus encourage us to worship his God and Father in spirit and truth, who is 'Our Father' as well?

Actually, Jesus' ministry was self-focused. See kgov.com/deity. So either Jesus was a liar, a lunatic, or Lord.

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[JudgeRightly]

Yes three...interesting number...was hoping for a name of the Holy Spirit...

"Let Us" could be two...none good but God His son said...our brother...as we too are sons...but not as Spirit filled as He...

Not in that post you weren't...

There's more to the number three than just that.

http://kgov.com/node/3839
http://kgov.com/three

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[musterion]

If I had ignored what it says I would not have been able to respond in the way that I did. :chuckle:

Try refuting it.

 

[musterion]

That 'chart' is only a depiction of beliefs and allusions for those who believe Jesus is YHWH. Not all followers of Jesus believe such.

Then every word you post should be ignored on the same grounds.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Traditionally, a very common view among Jewish commentators is that this does refer to a heavenly council or company, which would be the 'angels', 'sons of God' already apart of God's company.

freelight, are you saying that the "us" in the following verse is referring to both God and the angels?:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).​

Here we read that it is "us" who made man. If it was both the angels and God who made man then why are the angels left out in the verse which follows?:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him" (Gen.1:27).​

 

[clefty]

freelight, are you saying that the "us" in the following verse is referring to both God and the angels?:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).​

Here we read that it is "us" who made man. If it was both the angels and God who made man then why are the angels left out in the verse which follows?:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him" (Gen.1:27).​

Generals leaders coaches often speak collectively...and heaven at war prior creation would be good grounds to seperating us vs them...let us create a way to prove God is good through free willed worship...so man was created...

and it's in His image singular not them in their images...

 

[JudgeRightly]

http://kgov.com/jehovahs-witnesses-secretly-recorded (There are two more parts after this one which are linked to on the page.)

Follow along on kgov.com/deity
Also kgov.com/cults

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[daqq]

Try refuting it.

Yeshua himself already refuted it but you do not accept his Testimony which I posted.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Generals leaders coaches often speak collectively...and heaven at war prior creation would be good grounds to seperating us vs them...let us create a way to prove God is good through free willed worship...so man was created...

and it's in His image singular not them in their images...

Of course you provide absolutely no evidence from the Scriptures to support your assertion!

At Genesis 1:26 God is spoken of as being a plurality. This is a case of a "compound unity," a concept which is spoken of here:

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery" (Eph.5:31-32).​

This concept is above the reasoning of our finite minds and that is why Paul calls it a "mystery." Nevertheless, the concept of "compound unity" is found in the Bible and that same concept applies to the Godhead.

The Bible reveals that there is One God in three Divine Persons. That is why we read of the "name" (singular) of God here:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt.28:19).​

Besides that, if your take on the meaning of Genesis 1:26 is correct how do you explain what the LORD says here?:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" (Gen.3:22).​