Right Divider
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For at LEAST the FOURTH time, I'm not taking issue with Wormwood.... I'm taking issue with your WILD speculation that "Satan is going to make it hit earth".
Is Wormwood here as prescribed in the Good Book,
- Thread starter Bee1
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beameup
New member
The tail of a comet could pass over the face of the earth as it rotates and the debris emitted could therefore contaminate and poison all fresh water sources.
A meteorite (asteroid) only impacts one area. Both comets and meteorites (asteroids) circulate within the second heaven.
PS: Satan and the rebellious angels were kicked out of the Third Heaven where God dwells. Satan and the rebellious angels would then presently be in the Second Heaven (the abode of the stars/planets).
marhig
Well-known member
Can you not see that the revelation that John received is Spiritual, heaven isn't the sky. When he was lifted up into the third heaven he didn't go up into the sky.
beameup
New member
You are lacking in the study of the entire Bible, as examples of "Heaven" coming in direct contact with "the Earth" occurred in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. For example, Jesus was taken up into Heaven in Acts. The language used in the N.T. was Koine Greek. Koine Greek concepts were incorporated into the Jewish culture. The third heaven was the abode of God/Gods. I suspect that the Third Heaven is another DIMENSION, but described as up.
PS: Satan and the rebellious angels were kicked out of the Third Heaven where God dwells. Satan and the rebellious angels would then presently be in the Second Heaven (the abode of the stars/planets).
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marhig
Well-known member
Again you're just looking at the natural, there is a different spiritual meaning to being lifted up, just like the Bible is full of deeper meanings.
Do you see all of Revelation natural?
marhig
Well-known member
What?. So you believe that Satan lives in the natural stars and the planets?
WatchmanOnTheWall
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You say wild speculation, I say logical deduction.
Right Divider
Body part
If it were a "logical deduction" you could support it with some scripture. But you have not.
WatchmanOnTheWall
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So you think Revelation 8:11, 9:1, 8:8-9 et al aren't scripture.
Right Divider
Body part
Once AGAIN, none of those say ANYTHING about Satan causing a celestial object to hit the earth.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
See?
That's what I mean.
Instead of looking in the Bible for a biblical solution, we trust our own thoughts, newspaper headlines, and we walk by sight not by faith.
God has given answers to all of the things mentioned in Matthew 24 up to verse 34. We are not waiting for them to happen.
They were all fulfilled in the first generation. (edit:first generation of Christianity)
But they were fulfilled biblically, according to the kingdom of heaven, not necessarily politically, materialistically, or according to our present day standards.
Too often our attempts at understanding begin by telling God how He must communicate to us instead of listening to how He has communicated to us. That's a sure way to get it wrong.
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WatchmanOnTheWall
New member
Okay so how do you read it. What is the star John saw?:
Revelation 8:11
the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
Revelation 9:1
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
Revelation 8:8-9
8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
WatchmanOnTheWall
New member
Okay so you think all Matthew 24 happened in the first generation and if any verse wasn't actually fulfilled in the physical world it was fulfilled spiritually? So which are which, can you highlight which verses were not fulfilled physically but were fulfilled spiritually:
Matthew 24
5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29“Immediately after the distress of those days
“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’b
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that ite is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
beameup
New member
I see that John was struggling to find the words to explain the vision. The Koine Greek language used by John was attempting to describe "sci-fi" type events that would take place almost 2,000 years in the future.
A literal star would evaporate the earth in an instant. However, ἀστήρ aster~ was what he had to work with in describing the bright object.
In this case, "the stars" refer to the rebellious angels of Satan falling from the 2nd heaven.
Right Divider
Body part
Whatever it is, it says NOTHING about Satan cause it to hit the earth.
WatchmanOnTheWall
New member
In other word you haven't a clue and can only criticise. If you have nothing to contribute keep quiet.
Right Divider
Body part
I will speak up whenever I see someone making WILD and UNFOUNDED speculations about Biblical doctrines.
If you don't like that, don't make WILD and UNFOUNDED speculations about Biblical doctrines.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
There is a difference between being fulfilled physically, spiritually, and biblically. A biblical fulfillment can have many aspects and include both physical and spiritual. But I am not talking about the fulfillment.
I am not saying it was fulfilled spiritually. It wasn't. It was fulfilled physically and had many spiritual aftershocks. It is the prophecy itself that contains idiomatic expressions that need to be understood before we know what it could be pointing to.
For example:
The use of "sun, moon and stars" by the prophets tells us what to expect when Jesus uses the same terminology. When the prophets used this expression where these heavenly bodies were said to radically change their appearance, colour or position, they were talking about a judgement on particular nations which were bright lights in the world. see the prophecy against Egypt Ezek 32:7-8KJV , the prophecy against Idumea Is 34:4-5KJV, the prophecy against Babylon Is 13:9-10KJV
It was fulfilled physically in 70 AD. God put Israel's lights out and made it desolate with the Roman army. The sun (Jacob), the moon (Rachel?) and the stars (Jacob's sons - 12 tribes) as representatives of the nation of Israel (see Joseph's dream) came to an end and no longer shone as God's light in the world. Jesus was now that light. "I am the light of the world." John 8:12KJV
Knowing the fulfillment of prophecy depends completely on understanding the prophecy to begin with. I maintain that when we stay within the confines of God's revelation, and His words, we are much closer to truth than when we lean on our own understanding.
WatchmanOnTheWall
New member
But you're not actually proving what you are saying. You have no scripture or scriptural analysis to disprove my interpretation. You can't even provide an interpretation of you own. All you you've done make a unfounded claim. I don't think you understand that though.
WatchmanOnTheWall
New member
That is a good answer but it does not negate the fact that prophesy is often double or triple in mean and understanding. For the example you give, for example, there is a problem, and that is that the verses you site also point to the the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord when Jesus returns. This is shown most clearly in Revelation which refers to this day:
Revelation 6:12-13
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
And see how Jesus states that the darkening of the sun, moon and stars are also related to the day of His return:
Matthew 24
29“Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
The other big problem with spiritualising or as you also say, taking it Biblically is that many of those verses cannot be taken in any other way than physically. That is why I wanted you to high light the verses which you believe were not fulfilled physically but were fulfilled spiritually (or Biblically). Intead you chose to side step this exercise. I wonder why.
