Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[iouae]

You are ridiculous and you are proving yourself to be unstable. I have not rewrote any scripture. Fear God and maybe you will learn not to bear false witness.

The discussion had moved to John being in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. (Rev 1:10)

I suggest the spirit in question is THE (definite article) Spirit, meaning THE one and only Holy Spirit. John was not in his (John's) spirit on the Lord's Day.

Hope this helps.

 

[God's Truth]

The discussion had moved to John being in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. (Rev 1:10)

I suggest the spirit in question is THE (definite article) Spirit, meaning THE one and only Holy Spirit. John was not in his (John's) spirit on the Lord's Day.

Hope this helps.

John was in the spirit, his spirit.

 

[freelight]

Distinguishing spirits................

Distinguishing spirits................

John was in the spirit, his spirit.

Well,....there appears to be distinctions in the scripture between God's Spirit and a person's spirit (KJV does this sometimes by a smaller case "s" (spirit) and larger case "S" (God's Spirit), but in other places this can be more hard to determine, except by some grammatical nuance or context. It would appear in John's case,...he was in the Spirit of the Lord, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. This would mean of course that his spirit was united as one with God's Spirit while being caught up in the Spirit. One could assume as one is in 'rapture',...in spiritual communion....all one is aware of is the omnipresence of God,...so that its all One Spirit anyways. Now if on a relational level, you want to distinguish between the human spirit and God's Spirit, have at it,...it all depends on relational context. This if further complicated by discerning while being filled with the Spirit of God, how much of your 'spirit' is co-mingled with the Holy Spirit,...and so on.

To assume John was in 'his spirit' doesn't tell us much, unless you assume he was caught up into heavenly visions in his spirit-body, or astral projected in the astral realm to behold his visions, is that what you mean by John being in the spirit, "his spirit"?

 

[God's Truth]

Well,....there appears to be distinctions in the scripture between God's Spirit and a person's spirit (KJV does this sometimes by a smaller case "s" (spirit) and larger case "S" (God's Spirit), but in other places this can be more hard to determine, except by some grammatical nuance or context. It would appear in John's case,...he was in the Spirit of the Lord, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. This would mean of course that his spirit was united as one with God's Spirit while being caught up in the Spirit. One could assume as one is in 'rapture',...in spiritual communion....all one is aware of is the omnipresence of God,...so that its all One Spirit anyways. Now if on a relational level, you want to distinguish between the human spirit and God's Spirit, have at it,...it all depends on relational context. This if further complicated by discerning while being filled with the Spirit of God, how much of your 'spirit' is co-mingled with the Holy Spirit,...and so on.

To assume John was in 'his spirit' doesn't tell us much, unless you assume he was caught up into heavenly visions in his spirit-body, or astral projected in the astral realm to behold his visions, is that what you mean by John being in the spirit, "his spirit"?

We are 'in' the Spirit when the Spirit is 'in' us. John was in his own spirit when he went with the Spirit.

There is NO reason to believe John went in his body to heaven.

There is no reason to believe he was only dreaming, or merely having visions.

 

[genuineoriginal]

There is no reason to believe he was only dreaming, or merely having visions.

There is a reason to believe that John was dreaming or having a vision.

Numbers 12:6 6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.​

 

[freelight]

In the Spirit.............

In the Spirit.............

We are 'in' the Spirit when the Spirit is 'in' us. John was in his own spirit when he went with the Spirit.

There is NO reason to believe John went in his body to heaven.

There is no reason to believe he was only dreaming, or merely having visions.

Well yes,....we who are in Christ can assume we are 'in the Spirit', as the Spirit is also in us. How do you know John wasn't merely seeing visions illuminated to him by his being in rapport with the Spirit? Most translations put 'Spirit' with a capitol "S" to signify the Spirit of God. I don't see much reason or justification to assume 'spirit' here specifically refers to John's human spirit. As we touched on earlier, of course John's spirit was surrendered to, enraptured by and overshadowed by the Spirit of the Lord, which inspired his mind to see the images and visions that were given to him, so he could record them. So this coming to be "in the Spirit" at this time of inspiration, is indicating more of the 'condition' or 'estatic state' he was in, by the Spirit's influence whereby he could be lifted up into that realm of consciousness to 'hear' and 'see' from God. Here are a few Bible commentaries on the phrase "I was (or 'came to be') in the Spirit" -

Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

"I was in the Spirit" - This cannot refer to his own spirit, for such an expression would be unintelligible. The language then must refer to some unusual state, or to some influence that had been brought to bear upon him from without, that was appropriate to such a day. The word “Spirit” may refer either to the Holy Spirit, or to some state of mind such as the Holy Spirit produces - a spirit of elevated devotion, a state of high and uncommon religious enjoyment. It is clear that John does not mean here to say that he was under the influence of the Holy Spirit in such a sense as that he was inspired, for the command to make a record, as well as the visions, came subsequently to the time referred to. The fair meaning of the passage is, that he was at that time favored, in a large measure, with the influences of the Holy Spirit - the spirit of true devotion; that he had a high state of religious enjoyment, and was in a condition not inappropriate to the remarkable communications which were made to him on that day.

Whedon's Commentary on the Bible


In the Spirit—Spirit-wrapt. Compare Revelation 4:2; Revelation 21:10. If the man’s own spirit were meant, we might suppose the thought to be that the consciousness had ascended from the lower ground of sense, and so mounted into the spirit as to be in communication with the spirit world.

But the divine Spirit is doubtless meant; and the thought is, that the human spirit is in the divine Spirit as in a divine atmosphere, in which things of the spirit world are seen, known, and uttered. So, “How then does David in spirit call him Lord?” Matthew 22:43. “No man speaking by (Greek in) the Spirit of God, calleth Jesus accursed.” 1 Corinthians 12:3. In that supernatural state a mental production is put forth impossible to the same man’s natural powers alone. This Apocalypse is, indeed, the product of John’s mind, yet of his mind raised into a higher spiritual atmosphere. As in a divinely inspired waking dream, he thinks through a series of divine conceptions with an immediate spontaneity. The conceptions are divinely suggested to his mind, and so are, by him, thought and recorded. Under divine stimulation the language of his narrative, save where reciting the words of others, is his own.

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

in the Spirit — in a state of ecstasy; the outer world being shut out, and the inner and higher life or spirit being taken full possession of by God‘s Spirit, so that an immediate connection with the invisible world is established. While the prophet “speaks” in the Spirit, the apocalyptic seer is in the Spirit in his whole person. The spirit only (that which connects us with God and the invisible world) is active, or rather recipient, in the apocalyptic state. With Christ this being “in the Spirit” was not the exception, but His continual state.

Walter Scott's Commentary on Revelation

Revelation 1:10. — "I became in (the) Spirit on the Lord's day ." All Christians are "in Christ," in contrast with their former state "in Adam," and are "in the Spirit" in contrast with their previous condition "in the flesh." No Christian can ever be found again in either "Adam" or "flesh," both describing a past condition. In the former is signified that you are of that race of which "Adam" is head; in the latter is intimated the morally fallen condition in which the race is found. But being in the Spirit (Romans 8:1-39), as every Christian undoubtedly is, does not convey the force of "I became in (the) Spirit." The meaning is, that John was held, controlled, and characterised by an absolute subservience to the Spirit. Taken out from the consciousness of everyday life and circumstances, he found himself in another state of being. From the absence of the article before "Spirit," it must not be inferred that the Holy Spirit is not meant. It is not the Holy Spirit as a Person, nor our own spirit that is referred to, but the omission of the article marks the phrase as indicating a characteristic state, a state characterised by the Holy Ghost, and one in which the human spirit and the whole inner being were for the time absorbed (compare Ezekiel 11:24 with 2 Corinthians 12:2-3). Paul in his ecstatic state was not allowed then, nor afterwards, to record what he saw and heard. John, on the contrary, was commanded to do both.

 

[Aimiel]

Which is a sign you haven't entered his rest, and still needing to learn that the fear you teach will never gain you entry.

Beware, when you think you stand: lest you fall.

 

[Aimiel]

We are 'in' the Spirit when the Spirit is 'in' us. John was in his own spirit when he went with the Spirit.

There is NO reason to believe John went in his body to heaven.

There is no reason to believe he was only dreaming, or merely having visions.

Correct, for a body of flesh-and-blood has no place in Heaven. Spirit is above flesh. In Heaven men are capable of far more than they could ever do in a body of flesh. Our brains only have a finite number of brain cells. Spirit doesn't have limits. John wrote what he was inspired by The Holy Ghost to write and every single word he wrote is Scripture. He wrote Truth, or God would never have assigned him to visit the future.

 

[God's Truth]

Correct, for a body of flesh-and-blood has no place in Heaven. Spirit is above flesh. In Heaven men are capable of far more than they could ever do in a body of flesh. Our brains only have a finite number of brain cells. Spirit doesn't have limits. John wrote what he was inspired by The Holy Ghost to write and every single word he wrote is Scripture. He wrote Truth, or God would never have assigned him to visit the future.

I would agree.

 

[God's Truth]

There is a reason to believe that John was dreaming or having a vision.

Numbers 12:6 6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.​

We are speaking about John in Revelations.

There is no reason to believe it was merely a dream, or a vision. The scripture you used was not about John in Revelation, and it was not saying all visions are dreams.

 

[God's Truth]

Well yes,....we who are in Christ can assume we are 'in the Spirit', as the Spirit is also in us. How do you know John wasn't merely seeing visions illuminated to him by his being in rapport with the Spirit? Most translations put 'Spirit' with a capitol "S" to signify the Spirit of God. I don't see much reason or justification to assume 'spirit' here specifically refers to John's human spirit. As we touched on earlier, of course John's spirit was surrendered to, enraptured by and overshadowed by the Spirit of the Lord, which inspired his mind to see the images and visions that were given to him, so he could record them. So this coming to be "in the Spirit" at this time of inspiration, is indicating more of the 'condition' or 'estatic state' he was in, by the Spirit's influence whereby he could be lifted up into that realm of consciousness to 'hear' and 'see' from God. Here are a few Bible commentaries on the phrase "I was (or 'came to be') in the Spirit" -

I believe John was out of his body and in heaven.

 

[genuineoriginal]

We are speaking about John in Revelations.

Yes.

There is no reason to believe it was merely a dream, or a vision.

God Himself stated that He would speak in dreams and visions, therefore it is safe to believe that John was shown a dream or a vision.
Why do you think the dreams and visions sent from God are "merely" dreams and visions?

The scripture you used was not about John in Revelation

The scripture I used is about all prophets.

But, you wouldn't believe John saw a vision even if he stated so himself.

Revelation 9:17 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.​

 

[God's Truth]

Yes.


God Himself stated that He would speak in dreams and visions, therefore it is safe to believe that John was shown a dream or a vision.
Why do you think the dreams and visions sent from God are "merely" dreams and visions?


The scripture I used is about all prophets.

But, you wouldn't believe John saw a vision even if he stated so himself.

Revelation 9:17 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.​

No matter how hard you try, you cannot make the scriptures say John was not out of his body and not seeing these things, outside of his body.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No matter how hard you try, you cannot make the scriptures say John was not out of his body and not seeing these things, outside of his body.

There is no scripture that says John was in his body or out of his body.
The closest one is this one, which merely states that nobody can know for sure.

2 Corinthians 12:2 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.​

 

[God's Truth]

There is no scripture that says John was in his body or out of his body.
The closest one is this one, which merely states that nobody can know for sure.

2 Corinthians 12:2 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.​

The discussion is whether or not we have a spirit that lives on after the death of the body in consciousness. Just the fact that Paul suggests he might have been out of the body shows us it is a possibility.

There are people here debating and claiming we do not have spirits that live on in consciousness after the death of the body.

Paul also says HE WAS CAUGHT UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The discussion is whether or not we have a spirit that lives on after the death of the body in consciousness. Just the fact that Paul suggests he might have been out of the body shows us it is a possibility.

Paul referred to a common Greek belief about an eternal soul.
That does not mean it is a possibility.

Paul also says HE WAS CAUGHT UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN.

It is only the living that are caught up, since the dead are made alive first.
This happens before the judgment.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

There are people here debating and claiming we do not have spirits that live on in consciousness after the death of the body.

It can be successfully argued that the souls of people are conscious (or can be granted temporary consciousness) between the time the people die and the judgment (using the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus, for example).

The discussion here is whether the souls of wicked people remain in eternal conscious torment in hell after the judgment.

Here are two relevant verses:

Matthew 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Ecclesiastes 12:7 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

If both the soul and the body are fully destroyed in hell, and the spirit returns unto God, then there is nothing left to be conscious of eternal torment.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

There are people here debating and claiming we do not have spirits that live on in consciousness after the death of the body.

Dead means dead.

It is spiritualism which says men are alive when they are dead.

Only a resurrection or raising from the dead, makes men alive

 

[God's Truth]

Paul referred to a common Greek belief about an eternal soul.
That does not mean it is a possibility.

Paul would NOT HAVE said it if it were not a possibility.

It is only the living that are caught up, since the dead are made alive first.
This happens before the judgment.

Spirits do not die. When we come to God to be saved, we come to heaven, where the spirits of the righteous are that have been made perfect.


Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

If both the soul and the body are fully destroyed in hell, and the spirit returns unto God, then there is nothing left to be conscious of eternal torment.

The body IS a soul if it has the spirit still in it. We live on in consciousness. The scriptures say so.

 

[God's Truth]

Dead means dead.

It is spiritualism which says men are alive when they are dead.

Only a resurrection or raising from the dead, makes men alive

That is a doctrine of death.

 

[genuineoriginal]

When we come to God to be saved, we come to heaven, where the spirits of the righteous are that have been made perfect.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 12:18-25 18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: ) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:​

This is referring to the time before the Judgment.

The body IS a soul if it has the spirit still in it. We live on in consciousness. The scriptures say so.

The only ones that live on in consciousness are in resurrected bodies after the Judgment not the ones that were thrown into the lake of fire and fully destroyed.