Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[freelight]

Think for yourself......

Think for yourself......

When a person dies, it is said that they now have rest.

The term 'sleep' or that they are 'sleeping' is also used -as you know, some assume this 'deep sleep' is a kind of unconscious state or like 'suspended animation'....where that soul is in 'stasis' or 'comatose'. There is no life for these souls unless or until they are awakened (resurrected). A soul may appear to be at rest, but if all are judged by their works (the law of karmic compensation, sowing and reaping, cause/effect)...a soul is still responsible to atone for its sins. Remember if you believe Ezekiel, a soul can only die for its own sins....logically likewise, a soul must also make atonement for his own sins, if that is possible.

However, if they go to Hell, the scripture says they have no rest.

But as you might know,....the English word 'hell' is loaded with various connotations and superstition. Are you referring to Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo, the lake of fire, or? If you're just riding on the traditional image of 'hell',....it appears these wicked souls have no rest, because they have no real peace. They are tormented by their own insanity. We might be able to say 'they have no rest' AS LONG AS the condition or state of insanity continues in their own consciousness, and they have not received or accepted the peace of God. Otherwise, its just figurative language.

So then, how do you get the agony has a time of ending if there is NO REST?

Again, just a figure of speech eh? If the unrepentant wicked are actually destroyed (disintegrated) after allowing iniquity to wholly consume them....they are put out of their misery....they are no more. What are the wages of sin? What is the full and final result of iniquity whole-heartedly embraced?

As far as 'duration of punishment' goes... If you'll follow my former commentary,...see what 'aion', 'aionios' means,...it refers to an indefinite period of time, an age, epoch or dispensation. A condition of endless punishing is nonsensical, insane, barbaric, horrendous....not to mention unjust and unmerciful. However, there are dispensations of judgment and reward (which are age-enduring),...various measures appropriated in the providence of God. Divine love and wisdom, if they truly rule....do so in the perfect balance of justice and mercy, and remember, mercy triumphs over justice because of Love's will, unless providence allows the full reaping of the sowing of iniquity to finally end in death, the disintegration of the soul. This would have to happen if the law of sin and death are real, and their consequences, if a soul does not accept the law of the Spirit of life in Christ....see the alternatives? John 3:16 ? - 'conditional immortality'. - this is clearly 'biblical' if you want to use that term.

 

[Timotheos]

Your request is insincere. This is a long thread, and probably not the only thread where we spoke about this topic. I am not going to waste my time looking for a post so that you believe me. How about I tell you what you said to me, then you can tell me if it is something you would say.

You said I just want people to be tortured forever. Does that sound like an insult you are willing to admit to saying?

You made a false claim that I insulted you and you are unable to show any proof of your claim. As I said before, I don't think I ever insulted you but if I did, I apologiz
e. Since you are unable to show any proof of your accusation, I will assume that I never insulted you. I am willing to be proven wrong on this. But I won't simply accept your false accusation.

 

[God's Truth]

You made a false claim that I insulted you and you are unable to show any proof of your claim. As I said before, I don't think I ever insulted you but if I did, I apologiz
e. Since you are unable to show any proof of your accusation, I will assume that I never insulted you. I am willing to be proven wrong on this. But I won't simply accept your false accusation.

That is why I would not ever let you teach me anything.

 

[God's Truth]

The term 'sleep' or that they are 'sleeping' is also used -as you know, some assume this 'deep sleep' is a kind of unconscious state or like 'suspended animation'....where that soul is in 'stasis' or 'comatose'. There is no life for these souls unless or until they are awakened (resurrected). A soul may appear to be at rest, but if all are judged by their works (the law of karmic compensation, sowing and reaping, cause/effect)...a soul is still responsible to atone for its sins. Remember if you believe Ezekiel, a soul can only die for its own sins....logically likewise, a soul must also make atonement for his own sins, if that is possible.



But as you might know,....the English word 'hell' is loaded with various connotations and superstition. Are you referring to Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo, the lake of fire, or? If you're just riding on the traditional image of 'hell',....it appears these wicked souls have no rest, because they have no real peace. They are tormented by their own insanity. We might be able to say 'they have no rest' AS LONG AS the condition or state of insanity continues in their own consciousness, and they have not received or accepted the peace of God. Otherwise, its just figurative language.



Again, just a figure of speech eh? If the unrepentant wicked are actually destroyed (disintegrated) after allowing iniquity to wholly consume them....they are put out of their misery....they are no more. What are the wages of sin? What is the full and final result of iniquity whole-heartedly embraced?

As far as 'duration of punishment' goes... If you'll follow my former commentary,...see what 'aion', 'aionios' means,...it refers to an indefinite period of time, an age, epoch or dispensation. A condition of endless punishing is nonsensical, insane, barbaric, horrendous....not to mention unjust and unmerciful. However, there are dispensations of judgment and reward (which are age-enduring),...various measures appropriated in the providence of God. Divine love and wisdom, if they truly rule....do so in the perfect balance of justice and mercy, and remember, mercy triumphs over justice because of Love's will, unless providence allows the full reaping of the sowing of iniquity to finally end in death, the disintegration of the soul. This would have to happen if the law of sin and death are real, and their consequences, if a soul does not accept the law of the Spirit of life in Christ....see the alternatives? John 3:16 ? - 'conditional immortality'. - this is clearly 'biblical' if you want to use that term.

You will not know what Spiritual is because you do not even know what your spirit is.

 

[God's Truth]

From a Jewish perspective and their scritpures,...the 'soul' is a combination of the physical body and the 'spirit' (breath) of God, but there is no doctrine of the 'immortal soul' taught specifically there, for a soul can 'die' or perish with the physical body unless there is some kind of resurrection or 'reincarnation' whereby the soul is preserved, or where it is given the gift of immortality. The 'immortal soul' doctrine was adopted from Greek philosophy in the development of traditional church theology, so its somehow assumed that the soul is inherently immortal (by man traditionalists),...however...no Jewish scripture expressly teaches this and in the NT, immortality is something that is granted as a "gift", its something that man "puts on"...thru a miraculous resurrection.

Many passages support the premise of 'conditional immortality'....since it is conditional to one's choosing eternal life and qualifying to be made immortal....while the alternative of death comes by way of sin or iniquity. "The soul that sins dies". The OT says the spirit returns to God,....so whether there is an actual creation as a 'human spirit' or that the 'spirit' is God's breath that returns to him as some kind of impersonal life-force is open to speculation, but if a soul is granted immortality, obviously the person and the spirit of God are 'fused' together as one, never to die again....the 'person' receives, and merges with the divine nature of God himself, thereby becoming immortal. 'Immortal' here refers also to the condition of immortality, the divine nature itself. If this immortality is something given to man, he apparently did not have it before, hence it is a gift. Those who undergo the second death, are wholly disintegrated....the soul DIES (finally and eternally), since the physical body dissolves and the spirit (breath) is not returned to that person, but goes back to God (the Source of all). Whether that 'spirit' of God carries on and is breathed into another 'person' is open to speculation and we get into other fields such as metaphysics.

In any case, as I've shared earlier.....there is much support for 'conditional immorality', and little for ECT (when you look at all that is against it). If immortality is a gift, then it is something bestowed, earned. Only those who qualify to receive the gift, obtain it. Hence the offer of 'life' or 'death' is literally and conditionally true. My last post holds here.

Finally in a general sense,...traditional Christians and nomimal religionists of every sort tend to believe or 'assume' that the human spirit or soul is eternal, and cannot die. But passages expressly teach the soul that sins shall die, the wages of sin is death, there is a 'second death', the wicked shall be destroyed, etc.

From a liberal Spiritualist view, also from the more ancient schools of Greek and Vedic philosophy,...the concept of an 'immortal soul' prevails as something 'inherent' or innate,...even if that 'soul' or 'atman' goes thru a process of reincarnation or re-embodiments taking on new personalities,...its assumed somehow that there is an eternal/immortal element in man....while other aspects of the human person are subject to change. Again, we dive back into how we define terms, the different aspects of man's nature, his constitution, what parts of him are 'immortal' (if any) and those parts that are 'mortal' (subject to death).

You look to the Old Testament for spiritual information, but the New Testament is prophecies fulfilled and revelation of the Spirit, and our spirit.

You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between the soul and the spirit.

It helps to know these things.

 

[ok doser]

Really?

yep

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114009-Infraction-for-Timotheos-Unnecessarily-disruptive

i had a lot of fun with it! :banana:

 

[iouae]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

No, it's not Biblical. It turns God into a sadistic monster.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal consciousness.

The wicked are resurrected, judged and the incorrigible thrown into the lake of fire where they are burnt UP, not ever burning as in Dante's inferno.

 

[chrysostom]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

No, it's not Biblical. It turns God into a sadistic monster.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal consciousness.

The wicked are resurrected, judged and the incorrigible thrown into the lake of fire where they are burnt UP, not ever burning as in Dante's inferno.

thank you for that
-and
-I agree that the wages of sin is death
-not
-eternal suffering

 

[ok doser]

The wicked are resurrected, judged and the incorrigible thrown into the lake of fire where they are burnt UP...

and that's ok for you - not the act of a sadistic monster? :freak:

 

[chrysostom]

and that's ok for you - not the act of a sadistic monster? :freak:

do you kill flies
-or
-just tear their wings off?

 

[iouae]

and that's ok for you - not the act of a sadistic monster? :freak:

That's perfectly OK with me because there are many people I could not live with for all eternity.

I myself could not live with me for all eternity because I would rapidly degenerate into a sadistic monster, and people hater.

I am on God's self-improvement plan, whereby with the Comforter I am turned into someone one could live with for all eternity. Those refusing to join this "Sinners Anonymous" plan and who refuse to be led by the Spirit, will, with time all degenerate to the state that we see the demons in today.

So no, God is super-gracious in offering eternal life to all, and euthanising those who would live miserably for all eternity without His help.

 

[God's Truth]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

No, it's not Biblical. It turns God into a sadistic monster.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal consciousness.

The wicked are resurrected, judged and the incorrigible thrown into the lake of fire where they are burnt UP, not ever burning as in Dante's inferno.

Why are they resurrected then and then just re annihilated?

 

[iouae]

Why are they resurrected then and then just re annihilated?

To be judged, acknowledge their guilt and God's justice and then they are thrown into the lake of fire, which is like falling into a volcano's molten lava. You would not last 2 seconds. See Rev 20:12-15. Beats ever-burning.

Imagine you make Heaven and your child or best-friend does not. You are spending eternity worrying about the suffering of your child in hell. Does not make sense because just not true.

 

[God's Truth]

To be judged, acknowledge their guilt and God's justice and then they are thrown into the lake of fire, which is like falling into a volcano's molten lava. You would not last 2 seconds. See Rev 20:12-15. Beats ever-burning.

So then, according to you, when we die we are annihilated, since we have no consciousness anymore, according to you---but then, the unsaved are merely re annihilated?

If it were as you say, why not just let the wicked stay annihilated?

If it were as you say, why bring ANYONE back, even the saved? I mean if I die from this life and have no consciousness, why would I care about being brought back?

Imagine you make Heaven and your child or best-friend does not. You are spending eternity worrying about the suffering of your child in hell. Does not make sense because just not true.

The Bible says those that do not get saved---the memories of them will be wiped from our consciousness.

 

[iouae]

So then, according to you, when we die we are annihilated, since we have no consciousness anymore, according to you---but then, the unsaved are merely re annihilated?

If it were as you say, why not just let the wicked stay annihilated?

If it were as you say, why bring ANYONE back, even the saved? I mean if I die from this life and have no consciousness, why would I care about being brought back?



The Bible says those that do not get saved---the memories of them will be wiped from our consciousness.

God's Truth

Death is like unconscious/dreamless sleep.

The resurrection is like being awoken from sleep.

There is no loss of memory when resurrected. I don't know where you get this idea from.

We are resurrected to receive more life, or eternal life, because it sounds fun.

Like I said, the wicked dead are woken to be judged before the throne of God.
God could just not resurrect them. But you will have to ask Him why he does not do it your way and just leave them dead. Obviously He feels it would give more closure for them to see His justice and experience it.

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth

Death is like unconscious/dreamless sleep.

No, it is not. Death on this earth is a spirit without it's body.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

The resurrection is like being awoken from sleep.

When I am asleep I am NOT dead; and, I am NOT unconscious.

So far, you have destroyed your reasoning to that of being unreasonable.

There is no loss of memory when resurrected. I don't know where you get this idea from.

The Bible says that afterwards, they will be wiped from our minds.

Where did you get that I said when we are raised they will be wiped from our minds?

I see you have a lot of fear of not seeing someone you love.

Now think about this, we must not put anyone before God's Truth.

Are you putting someone above God's Truth because of the possibility that the person you are thinking the most of might not get saved in the end?

If that is what you are doing, then you are not obeying Jesus when he says hate your mother and father when you come to him. See, many do not completely come to Jesus because they know that it would mean someone they love might not make it.

We are resurrected to receive more life, or eternal life, because it sounds fun.

Are you making fun of the scriptures?

Like I said, the wicked dead are woken to be judged before the throne of God.
God could just not resurrect them. But you will have to ask Him why he does not do it your way and just leave them dead. Obviously He feels it would give more closure for them to see His justice and experience it.

You are the one that says we live in unconsciousness. I know we live in consciousness after the death of our bodies. You are the one saying we do not. You have to explain how the scriptures make sense if we do not have consciousness.

 

[iouae]

No, it is not. Death on this earth is a spirit without it's body.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.




When I am asleep I am NOT dead; and, I am NOT unconscious.

So far, you have destroyed your reasoning to that of being unreasonable.




The Bible says that afterwards, they will be wiped from our minds.

Where did you get that I said when we are raised they will be wiped from our minds?

I see you have a lot of fear of not seeing someone you love.

Now think about this, we must not put anyone before God's Truth.

Are you putting someone above God's Truth because of the possibility that the person you are thinking the most of might not get saved in the end?

If that is what you are doing, then you are not obeying Jesus when he says hate your mother and father when you come to him. See, many do not completely come to Jesus because they know that it would mean someone they love might not make it.



Are you making fun of the scriptures?



You are the one that says we live in unconsciousness. I know we live in consciousness after the death of our bodies. You are the one saying we do not. You have to explain how the scriptures make sense if we do not have consciousness.

Satan's first, and greatest lie, is that you shall not surely die.

You seem to have swallowed this lie, that the dead are not really dead, they are the walking dead (or floating dead). You need to stop watching those zombie movies. The dead are dead, as in no signs of life, not conscious, no ECG.

 

[God's Truth]

Satan's first, and greatest lie, is that you shall not surely die.

Our bodies do die. You cannot use that scripture as you liked. How do you get our spirit living on means we do not die?

You seem to have swallowed this lie, that the dead are not really dead, they are the walking dead (or floating dead). You need to stop watching those zombie movies. The dead are dead, as in no signs of life, not conscious, no ECG.

You have it backwards, for in your movies the body is still alive. You are trying hard to sound right but you are not cutting it.

 

[iouae]

Our bodies do die. You cannot use that scripture as you liked. How do you get our spirit living on mean we do not die?



You have it backwards, for in your movies the body is still alive. You are trying hard to sound right but you are not cutting it.

God breathed into Adam the breath (air) of life and he became a living soul. The physical, mortal man IS the soul. There is nothing immortal in man. When man dies, there is nothing left.

Only God can resurrect man, either as a spirit, or again as a mortal. Till the resurrection, we sleep. Even Paul and Jesus refer to death as a sleep (e.g. Lazarus sleeps).

All pagan societies have bought into the demonic lie that the dead are spirits wandering around. All spirits wandering around today are demons, POSING as the dead.

 

[God's Truth]

God breathed into Adam the breath (air) of life and he became a living soul.

God breathed a spirit into Adam. Our breath is not our spirit.

The physical, mortal man IS the soul.

There are two ways to see our physical body: one way as dead (without the spirit), and the other is alive (with the spirit).

There is nothing immortal in man. When man dies, there is nothing left.

When man dies, his body become a dead body.
His spirit lives on without the body.

Only God can resurrect man, either as a spirit,

What? You have spent a lot of time denying we have a spirit that lives on, and now you speak of the spirit as living on without the body.

or again as a mortal. Till the resurrection, we sleep. Even Paul and Jesus refer to death as a sleep (e.g. Lazarus sleeps).

When we sleep we are not dead and we are not unconscious.

All pagan societies have bought into the demonic lie that the dead are spirits wandering around. All spirits wandering around today are demons, POSING as the dead.

So you are saying Jesus' disciples thought that he was a demon. I think you are badly mistaken.

Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."