Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Lazy afternoon]

You did not give a scripture that says what you say. You did not give a scripture that says the wicked will rise with mortal bodies.

I have scripture that says the dead will be raised imperishable.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Show scripture that say the wicked will not be raised imperishable.

Only the righteous will be raised imperishable.

The wicked will perish--

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

LA

 

[godrulz]

Perish/death does not mean cessation.

 

[freelight]

iniquity fully embraced results in death

iniquity fully embraced results in death

I have scripture that says the dead will be raised imperishable.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Show scripture that say the wicked will not be raised imperishable.

ECT has already been proven to be insane here being problematic on many levels for starters. As mentioned already on the verse above, Paul is speaking of the 'saints' in particular which the context demands, since it would be illogical for the wicked to be resurrected in an 'imperishable' body. Read the context, for the resurrection unto immortality is a gift of God given only by 'God' and merited by those meet the qualifications to "put on immortality". Why would the wicked be given an imperishable body? To assume such just to hold to the horrendous doctrine of ECT is doubly erroneous, and unnecessary.

I would reconsider the nature of infinite Love, and the divine will, which ever upholds the true principle of justice and mercy, mediating such with infinite wisdom, also recognizing the laws that govern eternal life and death, and where allegory/metaphor and literal meanings are properly interpreted by the same wisdom granted the context and those characteristics that truly represent the character of 'God', who is not the monster envisioned by false religious concepts and misconceived notions of justice.

It is no wonder many cognizant seekers of truth reject ECT and the 'god' (small 'g' intended) who is supposedly behind such, finding such a 'fiend' unworthy of worship. - this leaves the doctrine of 'conditional immortality' (which includes soul-death), and 'universalism' (all souls eventually/ultimately being restored) much more logical and reasonable based on various principles which support such propositions. And this does not touch other world-religious views from other traditions that offer other insights into the nature and destiny of souls, which also belong to the university of knowledge and revelation given to man, since 'God' has not limited his wisdom to just one human culture or religious denomination.



pj

 

[freelight]

no matter how you define 'terms', the problems with ECT remain

no matter how you define 'terms', the problems with ECT remain

Perish/death does not mean cessation.

As shared before, you're still stuck with a 'god' who inflicts endless torment to no end, and with no remedy upon souls created by him, which frustrates his own will, works against his nature as Love, and upholds a stern sense of vile justice lacking mercy since it condemns forever souls in a state of ECT, with no hope of resolve, recovery or reformation from such suffering EVER. A 'god' who enforces and sustains such eternal misery on his offspring is unworthy of the title 'God', let alone the personification of love or wisdom.



pj

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear freelight,

He is a very loving Father, and He does not inflict it on all of His children. Not at all as many as you would think. We can see that even in Rev. 20:13, "and death and hell gave up the dead which were in them and they were judged every one according to their 'works.' (and works can mean faith and righteousness, etc.). And then death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, where the beast/antichrist and false prophet (and Lucifer), and Satan, are. Do you think that Hitler or Mussolini should go to heaven where all the rest of us are?? God is SAVING MOST OF HIS CHILDREN!! They just have to wait each until they learn what is good and what is evil, and learn to choose the good. If they don't want to choose the good, then they are stuck with the evil and it's endless torment, and eternal misery. He gives everyone chance after chance after chance. Jesus said 'forgive your brother for seventy times seven times, but I'll tell you this, they forgave me 70,000 times 7, more or less. God loves you for the long haul as long as you learn His ways and learn the difference between good and evil. That has been the whole reason of this race of our Adam and Eve. To choose good over evil. That's what it's all been about. And there is one more mystery for why we are on this earth, but you will have to wait until later to find that out. I cannot say. It is a secret and God doesn't want it known just now. You will all find out soon enough.

God and Jesus Bless You Tons, Freelight,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear freelight,

My last post showed a duplicate copy (don't ask me how), so I deleted one of them. I don't know what I did to make it do that. That's the reason for the deleted post here. Thanks!!

Much Love In Christ,

Michael

 

[Timotheos]

Perish/death does not mean cessation.

Perish/death does not mean "continue to live forever in hell being tormented". Perish means to die or be destroyed. Death means "the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism."

 

[Timotheos]

Tim fails to recognize the semantic range of meaning of words, all relevant verses exegeted in context, etc. He has a preconceived idea and twists verses to fit it.

Examples please?

It seems that you guys don't recognize the semantic range of words since you deny that death can actually mean death, destruction can actually mean destruction, perish can actually mean perish, and the Bible can actually mean what it says.

Please do not falsely accuse me of twisting verses. I have not twisted any verse, and I challenge you to supply one example of me twisting a verse.

 

[chrysostom]

Examples please?

It seems that you guys don't recognize the semantic range of words since you deny that death can actually mean death, destruction can actually mean destruction, perish can actually mean perish, and the Bible can actually mean what it says.

Please do not falsely accuse me of twisting verses. I have not twisted any verse, and I challenge you to supply one example of me twisting a verse.

why wouldn't death mean death?

words should mean something
and
we should agree what they mean

isn't that why we have a dictionary?

how would we know what the bible says without it?

 

[Timotheos]

You did not give a scripture that says what you say. You did not give a scripture that says the wicked will rise with mortal bodies.

I have scripture that says the dead will be raised imperishable.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Show scripture that say the wicked will not be raised imperishable.

Since the Bible says that the wicked will perish, they will not be raised imperishable, will they?

The verse you quoted said WE will be changed. It doesn't say the wicked will be changed. We will be changed, All who are in Christ will be changed, All who are in Christ will be raised imperishable. The verse doesn't say that the wicked have eternal life.

 

[Timotheos]

why wouldn't death mean death?

words should mean something
and
we should agree what they mean

isn't that why we have a dictionary?

how would we know what the bible says without it?

I don't know why they claim that people who believe that death means death "fail to recognize the semantic range of meaning of words". I think it is another way of saying "Surely you will not die". I can just see the snake saying to Eve, "God said you would die if you ate the fruit, but you fail to recognize the semantic range of meaning of the word die, Surely you will not die".

 

[Timotheos]

Perish/death does not mean cessation.

My dog died, he perished. All games of "fetch" have ceased. He doesn't run like he used to. He just lays there smelling up the back yard. I'd bury him, but I don't want to fail to recognize the semantic meaning of perish. I'll throw a stick tomorrow and see if he fetches it.

Perish/death actually does mean the cessation of life.

 

[God's Truth]

Only the righteous will be raised imperishable.

The wicked will perish--

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

LA

Perish can mean to leave God's view.

 

[God's Truth]

ECT has already been proven to be insane here being problematic on many levels for starters. As mentioned already on the verse above, Paul is speaking of the 'saints' in particular which the context demands, since it would be illogical for the wicked to be resurrected in an 'imperishable' body. Read the context, for the resurrection unto immortality is a gift of God given only by 'God' and merited by those meet the qualifications to "put on immortality". Why would the wicked be given an imperishable body? To assume such just to hold to the horrendous doctrine of ECT is doubly erroneous, and unnecessary.

When the dead are raised, they will be raised imperishable.
I have scripture that says the dead will be raise imperishable.
If you can show me scripture that says the dead will be raised perishable, I will believe it.

I would reconsider the nature of infinite Love, and the divine will, which ever upholds the true principle of justice and mercy, mediating such with infinite wisdom, also recognizing the laws that govern eternal life and death, and where allegory/metaphor and literal meanings are properly interpreted by the same wisdom granted the context and those characteristics that truly represent the character of 'God', who is not the monster envisioned by false religious concepts and misconceived notions of justice.

Please do not say anything about making God a monster. We have to be careful to not blasphemy things we do not understand.

I believe the spirit of humans do not die, even after physical death. Since the spirits of humans do not die, there are people now living in prison.

It is no wonder many cognizant seekers of truth reject ECT and the 'god' (small 'g' intended) who is supposedly behind such, finding such a 'fiend' unworthy of worship. - this leaves the doctrine of 'conditional immortality' (which includes soul-death), and 'universalism' (all souls eventually/ultimately being restored) much more logical and reasonable based on various principles which support such propositions. And this does not touch other world-religious views from other traditions that offer other insights into the nature and destiny of souls, which also belong to the university of knowledge and revelation given to man, since 'God' has not limited his wisdom to just one human culture or religious denomination.

I only want God’s Truth. The Word of God says that there will be people who do not repent, even after suffering God’s wrath. I believe what God says.

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony

11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.


We HAVE TO REPENT to be saved, and to stay saved.
The scriptures show that there will people who will NOT.

 

[God's Truth]

Since the Bible says that the wicked will perish, they will not be raised imperishable, will they?

The scripture says the DEAD WILL RAISE IMPERISHABLE.

The verse you quoted said WE will be changed. It doesn't say the wicked will be changed. We will be changed, All who are in Christ will be changed, All who are in Christ will be raised imperishable. The verse doesn't say that the wicked have eternal life.

The scripture says the DEAD will be raised imperishable.

 

[God's Truth]

I don't know why they claim that people who believe that death means death "fail to recognize the semantic range of meaning of words". I think it is another way of saying "Surely you will not die". I can just see the snake saying to Eve, "God said you would die if you ate the fruit, but you fail to recognize the semantic range of meaning of the word die, Surely you will not die".

Humans are flesh and spirit.

Spirits do not die, even after the death of the body.

When a wicked person dies physically, they are still alive in their spirit.

They will be in hell, prison.

When Jesus comes, he will raise the righteous and the wicked.

The Bible calls those who are unrighteous dead even as they live in a physical body.

The Bible calls those living people 'dead'.

Perish could also mean away from one's sight.

Perish could also mean destroy as in torment.

We can see from the scriptures that there are deeper, spiritual meanings for some words.

Jesus says the punishment is eternal. I would gladly accept that they just cease to exist, if you can explain and prove from the scripture better. For what is punishment if the one being punished is not conscious of it?

Could it be that the punishment being eternal means that they cease to exist? I told you before that you could lead me to better understanding in this area, if you can prove from the scriptures that the dead cease to exist. So far, you have not proven to me any such thing.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[God's Truth]

How is it that the worms no longer die, but the people do. Mark 9:48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

 

[resurrected]

must be fireproof worms :chuckle:

 

[God's Truth]

Why the fire is eternal if the people in it are long gone?

Matthew 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[God's Truth]

Tell me, in these scriptures, are not those who worship the beast the wicked?

If there will be no rest for them day or night, doesn’t that mean they will live eternally?

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”