God's Truth
New member
Then why did you protest?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Then why did you protest?
God's Truth
New member
The scripture says there will be no rest for them day nor night. That tells us who do know what day and night is that they will not have rest.
How do you get that it means otherwise?
Does not matter if its Biblical, it is logical, and consistent with what science can tell us about the nature of the universe. The idea that we, or atleast "the wicked" are destroyed is unfortunately not supported by logic or science.
Death is a valid word, but the biblical concept is separation in principle rather than a secular, godless view of cessation/evolution/animals.
Because of the fact I believe the dead are really dead but they still exist, just not as a living person. What word do you use for a person who is not alive?
how do you know that?
God's Truth
New member
Okay, explain how you think the dead really exist.
Those who die are dead physically but alive somewhere spiritually.
Physical, spiritual, eternal death are related, not identical.
Look at all the uses of the word 'dead, death, etc.' in context. It does not support cessation of existence as to spirit-soul vs body.
The word soul refers to life.
The spirit of man was first breathed into Adam and then he lived.
When the car runs out of petrol then where did its life go?
The petrol is not the life, it fuels the life.
If the car is wrecked in a collision and will not work then even if the petrol tank is full the car is dead.
The life lived by the living, is alive to God if they are His, but when they die they are themselves dead, but still alive in Gods sight.
LA
I don't really want to argue about this anymore. It seems to be going nowhere.
I know that the dead exist because I have seen a dead person and he existed. He was not alive, but he existed. He was dead. I don't know how else to say this. He was dead, and not alive. He was not conscious. He was not in pain, he was not traveling to another dimension beyond space and time where the dead live in the twilight zone. He was dead, but he existed, as a dead person, not as a living person.
That is not a biblical statement, and has no support from the Bible.
That is merely your opinion. People who are dead physically really are dead. They are not alive somewhere else. They will be alive again when Jesus Christ returns to resurrect the dead. This is what the Bible says, and this is what I believe.
I don't want to argue with you anymore. If you can't accept this, believe whatever you want to believe, and may God bless you.
"Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." 2 Timothy 2:23-24 NIV
I'm going to try to avoid TOL for a while.
I hope you have a pleasant day.
God's Truth
New member
You are wrong. You say false things about the Bible, and about me. I only speak of what the Bible says. The Bible speaks of our spirits living on outside our bodies.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--
Now, be more careful and about bearing false witness against me.
I disagree with you. That scripture doesn't say that the dead live on in a different place while they are dead. I don't want to argue. Disagreement is not bearing false witness. I don't say false things about the Bible or about you, I say that I disagree with you. I stand behind my statement that the Bible doesn't support your claim that the dead live on in another place. The scripture you used to "prove" that doesn't' say that.
Goodbye, and may God richly bless you forever. I don't want to talk to you any more, it isn't healthy for me.
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God's Truth
New member
You do say false things about the Bible and me.
That scripture I gave proves the spirit of humans can live outside the body.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Paul's spiritual vision......
Paul's spiritual vision......
It appears Paul is indicating that he couldn't tell if this person was in the physical body or not at the time of his vision (may have been an OBE {out of body experience} or astral/spirit-flight} )...so he is accepting the traditional or spiritualist view that a spirit-soul does exist and is 'conscious' when seperate from the physical. This was not a case of the person's death however, neither could we say for certain it was an NDE (near death experience)....so this passage could not be used with any force to prove that when people die their spirit-soul continues to consciously exist. The 'being caught up into the 3rd heaven' was such a spiritual experience that it transcended the physical. The verse doesnt really help either side of the debate, but just to show that people may have a heavenly vision or temporarily leave their physical body, their spirit-body extending outside their physical to experience something in the spiritual realm.
For those who believe in 'soul-sleep', like Timotheos...all souls are 'dead' upon physical death....wholly 'unconscious' until they are resurrected, then only the righteous are saved, made immortal, while the unrepentant wicked perish (are disintegrated). - such is the second death, a final/eternal cessation of existence.
I still take the Spiritualist view which I find more reasonable, having just added a comment-entry on this in my ECT blog-portal here, in which spirit-souls do not die at physical death but continue their lives in the spirit-world, continuing to progress, learn, develop, evolve, etc. In this view of the after-life spirits suffer or are happy according to their own conditions of harmony or discontent with universal laws and principles, for the law of compensation (karma) continues as each reaps what he sows, and is happy to the extent that he follows God's laws, and unhappy as he transgresses such. In the spirit-world there are various realms or spheres of both darkness (the hells) and light (the heavens)....so that spirits dwell in such spheres according to their soul's disposition and character. As long as a soul has the capacity/ability to repent and choose a better condition of existence, he may afford the help of those spirit-helpers and angels who are ever ready to extend such help. - for the law of Love is eternal, seeking always the good, healing, restoration of the lost and wayward.
Consider that 'God' is Love...and that love is infinite.
pj
Paul's spiritual vision......
It appears Paul is indicating that he couldn't tell if this person was in the physical body or not at the time of his vision (may have been an OBE {out of body experience} or astral/spirit-flight} )...so he is accepting the traditional or spiritualist view that a spirit-soul does exist and is 'conscious' when seperate from the physical. This was not a case of the person's death however, neither could we say for certain it was an NDE (near death experience)....so this passage could not be used with any force to prove that when people die their spirit-soul continues to consciously exist. The 'being caught up into the 3rd heaven' was such a spiritual experience that it transcended the physical. The verse doesnt really help either side of the debate, but just to show that people may have a heavenly vision or temporarily leave their physical body, their spirit-body extending outside their physical to experience something in the spiritual realm.
For those who believe in 'soul-sleep', like Timotheos...all souls are 'dead' upon physical death....wholly 'unconscious' until they are resurrected, then only the righteous are saved, made immortal, while the unrepentant wicked perish (are disintegrated). - such is the second death, a final/eternal cessation of existence.
I still take the Spiritualist view which I find more reasonable, having just added a comment-entry on this in my ECT blog-portal here, in which spirit-souls do not die at physical death but continue their lives in the spirit-world, continuing to progress, learn, develop, evolve, etc. In this view of the after-life spirits suffer or are happy according to their own conditions of harmony or discontent with universal laws and principles, for the law of compensation (karma) continues as each reaps what he sows, and is happy to the extent that he follows God's laws, and unhappy as he transgresses such. In the spirit-world there are various realms or spheres of both darkness (the hells) and light (the heavens)....so that spirits dwell in such spheres according to their soul's disposition and character. As long as a soul has the capacity/ability to repent and choose a better condition of existence, he may afford the help of those spirit-helpers and angels who are ever ready to extend such help. - for the law of Love is eternal, seeking always the good, healing, restoration of the lost and wayward.
Consider that 'God' is Love...and that love is infinite.
pj
God's Truth
New member
Paul is accepting God's Truth. Why do you have to say the tradition or spiritualist view?
You are wrong. We definitely can use this scripture as proof the spirit can and does exist without the physical body.
It is plain and simple, but you deny it.
The soul sleep doctrine is the doctrine of death.
Our bodies are mortal our spirits do not die.
Karma is a false religions wisdom, which is rubbish.
I live through Jesus. I do not accept your beliefs from other places.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Love is infinite.....
Love is infinite.....
There is no reason to assume that Paul's account of another man's vision or experience is somehow 'God's Truth'. He's merely calling to mind the experience of another, plus has shared his own experiences which are 'personal experiences' and his own 'personal revelations'. He also claims that some of his views are his own 'opinions'. There is no reason to assume all that Paul wrote is somehow 'God's Truth', since they were only personal letters anyways written to various churches, which only later where compiled into the NT and given the status of being 'scripture'.
This passage proves only the 'account' of the event by another, and there is more proof actually for OBE's and NDE's in our current records of such, being more detailed and definitive.
NDE's and the Afterlife
Correct according to the spiritualist view.
You apparently do not understand the law of karma which is the law of compensation (what a man sows, that also he reaps)....such is a universal principle. All thoughts, words, actions have consequences,...such is the law of cause/effect. This rule applies here and in the after-life....as long as thoughts, words and actions have a conditional effect.
No, you live through a very narrow close minded conception of 'Jesus' and your own prefigured theology or interpretation of things, proven by your responses here and your lack of effort to learn more from what has been provided for your enlightenment.
Again, have you considered that God's Love is INFINITE? I'd meditate upon that reality a little more before you jump in and presume that Love is going to eternally torture and condemn souls to an eternity of endless torment and suffering. If you dont see the contradiction and and insanity here, then the light will have to dawn at a time when you are ready. Again,....consider God's LOVE. - this love is all-encompassing, infinite.
pj
Love is infinite.....
There is no reason to assume that Paul's account of another man's vision or experience is somehow 'God's Truth'. He's merely calling to mind the experience of another, plus has shared his own experiences which are 'personal experiences' and his own 'personal revelations'. He also claims that some of his views are his own 'opinions'. There is no reason to assume all that Paul wrote is somehow 'God's Truth', since they were only personal letters anyways written to various churches, which only later where compiled into the NT and given the status of being 'scripture'.
This passage proves only the 'account' of the event by another, and there is more proof actually for OBE's and NDE's in our current records of such, being more detailed and definitive.
NDE's and the Afterlife
Correct according to the spiritualist view.
You apparently do not understand the law of karma which is the law of compensation (what a man sows, that also he reaps)....such is a universal principle. All thoughts, words, actions have consequences,...such is the law of cause/effect. This rule applies here and in the after-life....as long as thoughts, words and actions have a conditional effect.
No, you live through a very narrow close minded conception of 'Jesus' and your own prefigured theology or interpretation of things, proven by your responses here and your lack of effort to learn more from what has been provided for your enlightenment.
Again, have you considered that God's Love is INFINITE? I'd meditate upon that reality a little more before you jump in and presume that Love is going to eternally torture and condemn souls to an eternity of endless torment and suffering. If you dont see the contradiction and and insanity here, then the light will have to dawn at a time when you are ready. Again,....consider God's LOVE. - this love is all-encompassing, infinite.
pj
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
why turned off?
why turned off?
Dont we all?
Hi GT,....was just gonna say you have your 'visitor messages' and 'private messages' option in your profile turned off, is there a reason for that? You can turn these on by going to your 'Edit Options' area in your UserCP. I was just curious. This makes it harder to communicate with you, unless you didnt want these options to begin with. Thanks,
pj
why turned off?
Dont we all?
Hi GT,....was just gonna say you have your 'visitor messages' and 'private messages' option in your profile turned off, is there a reason for that? You can turn these on by going to your 'Edit Options' area in your UserCP. I was just curious. This makes it harder to communicate with you, unless you didnt want these options to begin with. Thanks,
pj
God's Truth
New member
No, we all do not live through Jesus.
I turned off visitor messages when I was getting hateful messages on my profile page. I do not have private messages turned off.