ECT Is "Original sin" Seen by Others as Intrinsic Potential or latent in Creation as Evil

[jamie]

God did not think it was impossible for a person to obey God's Law.

Correct, it was not impossible to obey God's law. All a person had to do was circumcise his heart, just like today.

"Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart and be stiff-necked no longer." (Deuteronomy 10:16)

You skipped over Deuteronomy 30:6. Why?

"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." (Deuteronomy 30:6)

Also there is Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the Lord,
And take away the foreskins of your hearts,
You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Lest My fury come forth like fire,
And burn so that no one can quench it,
Because of the evil of your doings."

Paul explained, "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Romans 8:6-7)

Was Paul mistaken?

 

[popsthebuilder]

:nono:

You don't think even Enoch was well pleasing to GOD?

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[1Mind1Spirit]

You don't think even Enoch was well pleasing to GOD?

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Romans 12:3.

For I say to every man that is among you, through the grace given unto me, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Romans 12:3.

For I say to every man that is among you, through the grace given unto me, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

How does that apply here friend?

Enoch didn't place himself over others.....I'm confused....sorry....

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[1Mind1Spirit]

How does that apply here friend?

Enoch didn't place himself over others.....I'm confused....sorry....

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God hath dealt.

 

[popsthebuilder]

God hath dealt.

Indeed; and all glory is TO GOD. But I don't see how that means Enoch didn't please GOD. He was transfigured up to heaven and did not witness death according to scripture.

I promise I am not being intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant. I do admit to still being confused though...

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[1Mind1Spirit]

Indeed; and all glory is TO GOD. But I don't see how that means Enoch didn't please GOD. He was transfigured up to heaven and did not witness death according to scripture.

I promise I am not being intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant. I do admit to still being confused though...

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I didn't say Enoch never pleased God.

I do however like him as an example.
He had children so that blows JW's seed idea.

I believe he walked with pre incarnate Christ.

 

[john w]

Look buddy if you can't connect the freakin dots ...

You assume way too much, "pal"-who said we were "buddies?"

so much so as to see that GOD created adam in HIS likeness....so anything that comes from Adam would still have some semblance of it's Creator which it was fashioned after then this may be a fruitless endeavor.

So after Adams being ejected from Eden was all creation formed with intrinsic evil or just the capacity for evil along with good?

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No, we are created in the image and likeness of Adam, "post fall," per Genesis 5:3 KJV-"The Adams Family."

I focus on the details of the book, a book of details. You do not, and assert, "Well, it all says the same thing."


Contrasts.

Can you dig it, buddy?

How'd I do?

 

[popsthebuilder]

You assume way too much, "pal"-who said we were "buddies?"



No, we are created in the image and likeness of Adam, "post fall," per Genesis 5:3 KJV-"The Adams Family."

I focus on the details of the book, a book of details. You do not, and assert, "Well, it all says the same thing."


Contrasts.

Can you dig it, buddy?

How'd I do?

It's called compartmentalizing....and no, I do not.

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[john w]

It's called compartmentalizing....and no, I do not.

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I'd call yours psychobabble, after taking a few bong hits.


So there. Fun!

 

[popsthebuilder]

I'd call yours psychobabble, after taking a few bong hits.


So there. Fun!

Hey; how bout we hit reset like on the old nes, and start this over? Good to meet a fellow believer.

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[ttruscott]

Humans were created with free will. And that is why they sin.

The LORD did not create anyone with a propensity to sin.

While I agree that GOD could not create anyone with a propensity to sin, I cannot see that humans have a free will as Jesus said, a sinner is enslaved (addicted in today's language) to evil... IF we are indeed conceived in our own sin then we must have sinned by our free will before conception as we have lost our free will by the time of our conception...!

 

[popsthebuilder]

While I agree that GOD could not create anyone with a propensity to sin, I cannot see that humans have a free will as Jesus said, a sinner is enslaved (addicted in today's language) to evil... IF we are indeed conceived in our own sin then we must have sinned by our free will before conception as we have lost our free will by the time of our conception...!

That doesn't make sense to me.

Could you word it differently please.

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[ttruscott]

If it's impossible for a person to obey God's law they are going to sin.

No doubt about it. Believe the scripture.

Michael and Gabriel were people who obeyed all GOD's laws... and many more people than them. Being created human did not make us unable to obey; choosing to be sinful made us unable to obey THEN we were sown into the world as sinners. Matt 13:38-39.

 

[ttruscott]

.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

We are created in the "fallen" likeness and image of Adam:

Ummm, nope; not at all. There is no reason at all for the GOD who is righteous and who hates all evil and is committed to its destruction, to create anyone in the image of a fallen, evil person. NONE! This doctrine is blasphemy. You know some theology but you don't seem to know GOD at all.

HE is light in whom is no darkness at all. Your doctrine is like lighting a match in a lighted room and dark comes out and destroys all the light in the room. It is absurd! Dark / evil cannot come from light / righteousness any more that poisonous brackish water of death (Satan) can come from a well of pure life giving water (the GOD who is LOVE!)!

 

[ttruscott]

That doesn't make sense to me.

Could you word it differently please.

IF we can sin only by our free will (forced to sin is no sin at all), and,
IF we are sinners at conception / birth,
THEN it is no great leap to notice that we must have sinned pre-conception, probably in the spirit world Sheol, before the creation of the physical universe.

 

[popsthebuilder]

That doesn't make sense to me.

Could you word it differently please./QUOTE]

IF we can sin only by our free will (forced to sin is no sin at all), and,
IF we are sinners at conception / birth,
THEN it is no great leap to notice that we must have sinned pre-conception, probably in the spirit world Sheol, before the creation of the physical universe.

"IF we are sinners at conception / birth,"

If indeed friend.

I believe we have the potential for sin due to freedom. That is; I do not believe we are evil proir to conception or even upon birth, but that it is fostered and grows due to observation of surroundings.

peace

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[jamie]

Michael and Gabriel were people who obeyed all GOD's laws... and many more people than them. Being created human did not make us unable to obey; choosing to be sinful made us unable to obey THEN we were sown into the world as sinners. Matt 13:38-39.

"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Romans 8:6-7)

Paul explained that the natural mind of a person is not subject to God's law. It cannot be subject.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Romans 8:6-7)

These verses which are speaking of the "flesh" are speaking of a Christian's "walk." A Christian can either walk after the Spirit or after the flesh:

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:4).​

When Paul contrasts walking in the flesh with walking after the spirit he is speaking about being self-centered as opposed to being God-centered. Paul speaks about that same principle here:

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" (Ro.8:5).​

We can also understand that it is indeed possible for a Christian to walk or live after the flesh because Paul tells Christians that if they live after the flesh they shall die:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:13).​

If it is impossible that a Christian can walk after the flesh then it would make absolutely no sense for Paul to tell Christians that "if they live after the flesh you shall die."

The "death" spoken of here is in regard to the Christian's walk, that "we should also walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:4) so that "the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11). The second part of verse 13 is telling Christians that if they mortify the deeds of the body they will live. Christians are already received eternal life so Paul's words there are also referring to walking in newness of life.

From all of this we can understand that Christians can indeed walk in the flesh and when they live or walk that way they cannot please God. The Apostle John refers to that kind of walk as walking in darkness:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 Jn.1:5-6).​

 

[john w]

Ummm, nope; not at all. There is no reason at all for the GOD who is righteous and who hates all evil and is committed to its destruction, to create anyone in the image of a fallen, evil person. NONE! This doctrine is blasphemy. You know some theology but you don't seem to know GOD at all.

HE is light in whom is no darkness at all. Your doctrine is like lighting a match in a lighted room and dark comes out and destroys all the light in the room. It is absurd! Dark / evil cannot come from light / righteousness any more that poisonous brackish water of death (Satan) can come from a well of pure life giving water (the GOD who is LOVE!)!

Made up. Genesis 5:3 KJV, in contrast to your talk show speculation.

And could you please teach us another one of those original "but you don't seem to know GOD at all" zingers, as most of us were "blindsided" by that stunner, bewildered, as you are the first person in the history of Christian "sparing" to have ever employed that "knock out" debate ender. Please, teach me? Teach us?.