Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

intojoy

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And what makes them think those things happened at those times?

P.S.
If they are correct about the time between Paul's first preaching and the events in Acts 15 then that lends more credence to MAD, as it shows the Jewish Christians were still following and preaching the law.

Not necessarily. "Jewish Christians"

The proper use of the Mosaic Law for us as Christians is that portions of it can be followed on a voluntary basis.

It is no longer the rule of life for the believer but if Messianic Jews decide to keep the sabbath or observe the feasts then they can do those things. They will not receive sanctification nor learn to live holy lives by observing parts of the M Law but they can if they want to.

That's what Paul did. He kept parts of the law.
 

Nick M

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Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalmsmust be fulfilled.”
45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,


Jesus did not merely allude to the fact that He had fulfilled the scriptures He opened their minds so they could understand it spiritually. When Jesus says the Law, prophets and Psalms He means the whole Book. Because of this I could bring up any Messianic scripture in the OT. They were not the only ones who got this lesson compare this Luke 24:47. Are there OT scriptures that speak of the Messiah atoning for our sin by His suffering? Certainly there are. One prominent example is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Here are some key verses:

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our peace fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

(Isaiah 53:5-6)

And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12*Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors
.
(Isaiah 53:11-12)

John the Baptist had said in the beginning that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. What would that mean in the language of a Jew of that time (John 1:29)? He did not say "a" (sacrificial) lamb for Israel but one sufficiently perfect to satisfy the payment capable of saving the nation as the Passover Lamb had delivered Israel in the Exodus, at least all those who had the faith to apply it.

Then there were the scriptures foretelling the establishment of a new covenant with Israel. The Hebrew word for covenant b'rit implies the shedding of blood.

20“A Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD.
21“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”
(Isaiah 59:20-21)

Jesus rehearsed this event before He went to the cross just as believers have been ever since then.

…27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
(Matt 26:27-28)


Finally, turning back to Luke 24, Jesus is quoted as telling them the shedding of is blood was for the forgiveness of sin.

46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48“You are witnesses of these things. 49“And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

They would be witnesses of Christ's acts, his suffering, His teachings, His resurrection and ascension. They were to proclaim this message beginning at Jerusalem and then move out to all nations. The message of repentance for the forgiveness of sins was only possible because of Christ's shed blood on the cross and His resurrection.

31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.


Maybe that will get your attention. And knowing they did not preach the DBR for our justification, what did they preach?
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”

34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.


Maybe that will get your attention. And knowing they did not preach the DBR for our justification, what did they preach?

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Joh 14:26 ESV)

At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit illuminated the mind of Peter to preach about the death, burial and Resurrection of Jesus (Acts 2:23-24).

So the gospel preached in Acts 2 is definitely the same gospel as Paul's preached in 1 Cor 15:1-3.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Joh 14:26 ESV)

At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit illuminated the mind of Peter to preach about the death, burial and Resurrection of Jesus (Acts 2:23-24).

So the gospel preached in Acts 2 is definitely the same gospel as Paul's preached in 1 Cor 15:1-3.
Peter did NOT preach that "Christ died for our sins" in Acts 2.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Peter did NOT preach that "Christ died for our sins" in Acts 2.

So what was the basis for Peter's offer of forgiveness if not that Christ had died to forgive sins?"

Also, I assume then that you believe that Peter's gospel changed after acts 2, no?
 

Bright Raven

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So what was the basis for Peter's offer of forgiveness if not that Christ had died to forgive sins?"

Repentance and Baptism.

Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

heir

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Repentance and Baptism.

Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
for the remission of sins


They (all the house of Israel-every one of them) were to repent (change their mind) about WHO Jesus Christ was and be identified (water baptized) for the REMISSION of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. NO MENTION "how that Christ died for our sins".

It is definitely NOT the same gospel Paul preached!
 

Bright Raven

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for the remission of sins


They (all the house of Israel-every one of them) were to repent (change their mind) about WHO Jesus Christ was and be identified (water baptized) for the REMISSION of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. NO MENTION "how that Christ died for our sins".

It is definitely NOT the same gospel Paul preached!

Correct.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Repentance and Baptism.
I see, so in their case, Hebrews 9:22 is untrue. The power of their forgiveness rested in repentance and baptism, the shed blood of Jesus was irrelevant to them.

I'd dispute that but it's good to know that this is what MAD teaches.

Incidentally, is the same thing true of Paul's presentation of the Gospel at Mars Hill in Acts 17.

Paul never mentions that Christ died for their sins, so do we have a different gospel at work there as well?

What dispensation was in operation during the presentation on Mars Hill?
 

Bright Raven

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I see, so in their case, Hebrews 9:22 is untrue. The power of their forgiveness rested in repentance and baptism, the shed blood of Jesus was irrelevant to them.

I'd dispute that but it's good to know that this is what MAD teaches.

Incidentally, is the same thing true of Paul's presentation of the Gospel at Mars Hill in Acts 17.

Paul never mentions that Christ died for their sins, so do we have a different gospel at work there as well?

What dispensation was in operation during the presentation on Mars Hill?

This is Paul's gospel.


1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 

Dialogos

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This is Paul's gospel.


1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

So Paul didn't preach Paul's gospel on Mars Hill?
 

Bright Raven

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What makes you think that he did not preach the resurrection?

Acts 17:31-33 King James Version (KJV)

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33 So Paul departed from among them.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
I see, so in their case, Hebrews 9:22 is untrue.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
The power of their forgiveness rested in repentance and baptism, the shed blood of Jesus was irrelevant to them.
Their blotting out of sins is at the second coming of the Lord

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Paul confirms it.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



Whereas we in the Body have now received the atonement.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

It's as simple to understand as: They look forward to that day (Zechariah 13:1 KJV, 1 John 1:9 KJV while we look back to the cross Colossians 2:13 KJV).
 

Lighthouse

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Not necessarily. "Jewish Christians"

The proper use of the Mosaic Law for us as Christians is that portions of it can be followed on a voluntary basis.

It is no longer the rule of life for the believer but if Messianic Jews decide to keep the sabbath or observe the feasts then they can do those things. They will not receive sanctification nor learn to live holy lives by observing parts of the M Law but they can if they want to.

That's what Paul did. He kept parts of the law.
Irrelevant to the issue at hand. Also moot, as no one is disagreeing with this.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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So what was the basis for Peter's offer of forgiveness if not that Christ had died to forgive sins?"

Repentance. Admitting guilt and to stop sinning, water baptism as a ceremonial cleansing because the sin was not gone. But it foreshadowed what was to come.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
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But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Joh 14:26 ESV)

Then there was no need for Acts 10, for Peter to rise kill and eat. The meaning of Isaiah 53 was revealed first to Paul, then later Peter.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Their blotting out of sins is at the second coming of the Lord
Except that the book of Hebrews makes it abundantly clear that Jesus's sacrifice was once for all time.

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Heb 10:10 ESV)​

Heir said:
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
"When" is a terrible translation, this is one of the places the KJV gets it wrong.

The Greek word is ὅπως, it is in both the Alexandrian and the Byzantine manuscripts and it doesn't mean "when" it means "that, so that, in order that."

The NKJ even corrects the KJV here:

"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, (Act 3:19 NKJ)


Heir said:
Whereas we in the Body have now received the atonement.
So why then does Peter talk about nearsightedness of those who have forgotten that they were cleansed of their past sins?

For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. (2Pe 1:9 ESV)​

If, as the MAD proponents say, Peter was writing to the circumcision, and the circumcision -according to you - don't get their sins forgiven until Jesus returns, then why is Peter talking about something that he clearly thought happened in the past?

:idunno:


Heir said:
It's as simple to understand as: They look forward to that day (Zechariah 13:1 KJV, 1 John 1:9 KJV while we look back to the cross Colossians 2:13 KJV).
So Peter was looking forward or back in 2 Peter 1:9 'cause it sure looks like he thinks their sins are already forgiven.

BTW, why is Paul preaching the circumcision gospel to the Greek philosophers on Mars Hill?
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Then there was no need for Acts 10, for Peter to rise kill and eat. The meaning of Isaiah 53 was revealed first to Paul, then later Peter.
What are you talking about Nick?

Who do you think gave Peter the vision?

The Holy Spirit gave Peter the vision so that Peter would go into the house of Cornelius and preach the gospel to him and to his family.

Second, it sounds as if you believe that Peter ends up preaching the Pauline gospel, do I have you right?
 
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