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TOWARD is NOT in there!
Is Jesus God?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was a liar when He said that HE would raise HIMSELF?
Joh 2:19-21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (21) But he spake of the temple of his body.
Greetings again Rosenritter,
Kind regards
Trevor.
I believe that John 8:58 should be translated “I am he”, the same as John 8:24,28 KJV. Jesus is claiming precedence over Abraham, in that he was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham, and has a greater role. I believe that Exodus 3:14 should be translated “I will be” as per Tyndale and RV and RSV margins, not “I AM”, and thus there is no direct connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.
Kind regards
Trevor.
There's no word "he" there. Just because you believe it should be so doesn't make it so.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
You can believe anything you want. Doesn't make it true, though. Exodus 3:14 says "I AM WHO I AM."
Trying to change what scripture says is a bad idea. You should stop, and tell God you're sorry for trying to twist His words.
There's no word "he" there. Just because you believe it should be so doesn't make it so.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
You can believe anything you want. Doesn't make it true, though. Exodus 3:14 says "I AM WHO I AM."
Trying to change what scripture says is a bad idea. You should stop, and tell God you're sorry for trying to twist His words.
Correct, it's 'ego eimi', the same as "Exo 3:14 ……... Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you", in the Greek Septuagint/LXX.
Rosenritter
New member
Except that they weren't asking if Jesus had more authority than Abraham, they challenged that that Jesus could have any knowledge of "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." Simply being "planned" before Abraham wouldn't answer how he could both know and say that the Abraham himself rejoiced to see his day.
The question was "Thou art fifty years old and thou hast seen Abraham?" Your explanation seems to be that Jesus proceeded with a random statement that ignored their challenge... and in the process you must presume that every English version is mistranslated. That doesn't seem like solid ground.
For review, we already have quite a few different evidences that Jesus existed from antiquity:
1) In response to a challenge that he was not yet fifty years old, he states "Before Abraham was, I AM"
2) In response to the amazement that even his name drove out devils, he states "I beheld Satan fall as lightning from heaven."
3) The gospel of John begins its story of Jesus with "In the beginning was the Word" and proceeds to tell us that he walked among us
4) The revelation of Jesus Christ contains his own testimony that he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last
5) Jesus is placed at the creation in Colossians 1:16, that all things were created by him, and for him.... besides already being named as the creator in John chapter 1
6) In John 17:5, Jesus states that he had glory with the Father before the world was.
This starts to veer away from the pure "age" and antiquity thread but in 1 Corinthians 10:4 Paul even identifies the spiritual Rock that followed Israel as Christ,"That Rock was Christ." God uses the name "Rock" for himself, and yet what was Moses told would happen with the rock in the wilderness? Strike it once and it gives forth life for the people, speak to it gently the second time and receive living waters. But for him that strikes that Rock the second time his life shall be forfeit, even if it is the prophet Moses. Who was the Rock?
Deuteronomy 32:4 KJV
(4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Deuteronomy 32:15 KJV
(15) But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
Deuteronomy 32:18 KJV
(18) Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
2 Samuel 22:32 KJV
(32) For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
2 Samuel 22:47 KJV
(47) The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.
2 Samuel 23:3 KJV
(3) The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
And that's just some of the more obvious references: there's quite a few more that fold into this theme as well. He is the Rock that prevails against death and hell (Matthew 16:18, Revelation 1:18) and the stone which the builders rejected, the same upon which they that fall shall be broken, but he who he falls upon shall be crushed to powder. (Matthew 21:42-44, Luke 20:17-18). He that hears the sayings of Christ and does them is like he that builds upon a rock (Matthew 7:24).
There's so many ways that this keeps threading back to this common theme.
1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV
(4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
It is worthless to argue with someone that treats the Bible like it's been all hacked up and claim it most likely should say something other than what it says.
You could delete or change anything in the Bible with that mentality.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Most Likely? What, you don't know?
Greetings again JudgeRightly and Greetings steko,
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Now in both of these the KJV translates these as “I am he” and please note that John 9:9 is the blind man speaking. I also checked the following: ESV, NASB95, NRSV, NLT, NKJV, HCSB, LEB, NET, NCV, ISV, RSV, ASV, Darby, YLT. These all translate both of these as “I am he”. Now these are translations by mostly Trinitarians.
The questions that I would like to ask:
1 Why did these Trinitarians translate this as “I am he” in John 8:28, and not “I AM”.
2. Do you believe that Jesus is claiming to be the “I AM” in John 8:28. In other words, is there a difference in English between saying “I am he” and “I AM”?
3. When Jesus says in John 8:28 “I do nothing of myself”, is he claiming to be Deity?
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
Trinitarians like to demand the present tense and incorrectly use the LXX to verify this rendition.
Exodus 3:14 (LXX Brenton): And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
So even this LXX rendition of Exodus 3:14 does not match the Trinitarian translation of John 8:58. God’s name here is “THE BEING”, not “I AM”. Your statement "I AM hath sent me unto you", in the Greek Septuagint/LXX" is incorrect as the LXX says "THE BEING has sent me to you". In Hebrew if God wanted to say “I am”, he would use a different word contained in Exodus 3:6 where he says “I am the God of Abraham”.
Kind regards
Trevor
The same words in the same context are translated I am he in John 8:24 and John 8:28. Taking the second of these, and also the same in John 9:9, the KJV translates these as follows:
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Now in both of these the KJV translates these as “I am he” and please note that John 9:9 is the blind man speaking. I also checked the following: ESV, NASB95, NRSV, NLT, NKJV, HCSB, LEB, NET, NCV, ISV, RSV, ASV, Darby, YLT. These all translate both of these as “I am he”. Now these are translations by mostly Trinitarians.
The questions that I would like to ask:
1 Why did these Trinitarians translate this as “I am he” in John 8:28, and not “I AM”.
2. Do you believe that Jesus is claiming to be the “I AM” in John 8:28. In other words, is there a difference in English between saying “I am he” and “I AM”?
3. When Jesus says in John 8:28 “I do nothing of myself”, is he claiming to be Deity?
I am not changing what scripture says, but selecting what I believe is the correct translation. The context gives the future tense for the same words in Exodus 3:12 and this has a bearing on the Name given and the future tense. Yes God exists, but he was going to be with Moses and accomplish the deliverance of Israel out of Egypt and into the Promised Land. Many scholars render “ehyeh” in the future tense, not the present tense, refer Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins. I like quoting Tyndale because of the spelling:
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
Trinitarians like to demand the present tense and incorrectly use the LXX to verify this rendition.
On a technical level, Jesus is not quoting the LXX of Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58. The LXX is not an accurate translation of the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14. The following is the English rendition of the LXX:
Exodus 3:14 (LXX Brenton): And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
So even this LXX rendition of Exodus 3:14 does not match the Trinitarian translation of John 8:58. God’s name here is “THE BEING”, not “I AM”. Your statement "I AM hath sent me unto you", in the Greek Septuagint/LXX" is incorrect as the LXX says "THE BEING has sent me to you". In Hebrew if God wanted to say “I am”, he would use a different word contained in Exodus 3:6 where he says “I am the God of Abraham”.
Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings again Rosenritter,
John 8:52–57 (KJV): 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. .
Could I ask, when did Abraham rejoice to see the day of Jesus, and when was he glad when he did this. I suggest you are going down the same track as the Jews who did not understand what he was referring to and they were trying to discredit what he was saying.
Genesis 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. .
Abraham realised that what had transpired in his tentative offering Isaac as a burnt offering, would actually be fulfilled in the future, when the Christ, the seed of Abraham, would be offered up on one of the mountains of Moriah, and when he realised this, when he saw this, he rejoiced to see that future day and was glad.
Kind regards
Trevor
I suggest that the Jews did not understand Jesus’ initial statement concerning Abraham:
John 8:52–57 (KJV): 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. .
Could I ask, when did Abraham rejoice to see the day of Jesus, and when was he glad when he did this. I suggest you are going down the same track as the Jews who did not understand what he was referring to and they were trying to discredit what he was saying.
Genesis 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. .
Abraham realised that what had transpired in his tentative offering Isaac as a burnt offering, would actually be fulfilled in the future, when the Christ, the seed of Abraham, would be offered up on one of the mountains of Moriah, and when he realised this, when he saw this, he rejoiced to see that future day and was glad.
Could you please refer to my comments to JudgeRightly and steko in my previous post
Kind regards
Trevor
Rosenritter
New member
1. a. By using the word "mostly" do you mean that you know of some from that list that declared themselves as not Trinitarian? Of those, which?
b. Or are you using the word "mostly" to mean that you belief it is a safe assumption sans evidence that they were Trinitarian?
2. When there is no specific statement from a translation team, are you assuming "Trinitarian" or counting it as "unknown" or "neutral" or "Unitarian" or what?
Not being privy to the notes for any specific translation (and you did not specify a translation) I would point out that John 8:28 has a proper noun within the statement, "When ye have lifted up the Son of Man ... " whereas John 8:58 contains no other noun and stands alone. Seeing that translations are almost unanimous in this it likely has something to do with the grammar of the gospel text itself rather than a corrupted bias.
We also have the the help we have from the Jewish audience in verse 59 "Then they took up stones to cast at him" that tells us that those few words were equated with blasphemy. The Jews, being first-hand witnesses to the words including the context, tone of voice, and gestures, are an excellent indication of Christ's intent. Saying that you were a prophesied prophet of God is not blasphemy, but declaring yourself as God ("I AM") would (unless, of course, you actually are the "I AM".)
Reading the translation, it looks like "I am" points back to "the Son of Man" so "I AM" wouldn't be the intent of that sentence. That would be saved for John 8:58 below. As to whether the phrase is different in English, it goes back to context. Someone who was unfamiliar with the words of God to Moses at the bush wouldn't understand why "I AM" would have a different meaning. But we know what meaning the Jews understood because they took up stones to kill him.
I think it may be interpreted neutrally in that regard. Jesus made some very strong statements to declare deity ("The son of man is also Lord of the Sabbath", "the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins") but this wouldn't be one of those strong statements because it could be interpreted with a range of meaning. If he had meant to make a statement of deity in verse 28, how come they only picked up stones until after verse 58?
Rosenritter
New member
I was checking that same question earlier today ... because I was thinking of putting that same question to you. But I'd love to take point here if that's OK with you. This passage the Barnes commentary refers to Hebrews 11:13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off..." and the Clarke commentary to Genesis 22:18, "And in thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed..." which the Gill commentary links to Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
So I don't see any obvious scripture that would indicate that Jesus is referencing a direct quote even though the New Testament agrees by interpretation. The lack of a direct reference shows that Jesus was providing this either as his own private revelation or personal witness. So which was it? Was this special revelation or did he literally knew Abraham and his word is witness. Thus the Jews mocking reaction is explained "and hast thou seen Abraham?" which is met head-on by Jesus declaring that He IS the God of Abraham... which did not even hint at the alternative of special revelation.
Exodus 3:6 Tyndale
(6) And he sayde: I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Iacob And Moses hyd his face, for he was afrayde to loke vpon God.
John 8:58 Tyndale
(58) Iesus sayd vnto them: Verely verely I saye vnto you: yer Abraham was I am.
That is a very good interpretation of the passage, but you are making that connection with the benefit of hindsight and the revelation of the New Testament. While I agree that is likely the case, that isn't what the scripture actually says and I don't see how that could be proven by Old Testament quotation. Christ's statement was made in such a way that he only used Himself as His own authority to report the mind and belief of Abraham as it related to Himself.
Yes please, thank you for the invitation.
keypurr
Well-known member
The method of communicating with God is called praying.
Since Jesus is one of the Persons of the Trinity, why wouldn't He talk to (pray) the other members?
Third time I'm asking Keypurr. Could you please go back and fix the formatting on this post so that I can reply to it?
keypurr
Well-known member
There's no word "he" there. Just because you believe it should be so doesn't make it so.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
You can believe anything you want. Doesn't make it true, though. Exodus 3:14 says "I AM WHO I AM."
Trying to change what scripture says is a bad idea. You should stop, and tell God you're sorry for trying to twist His words.
AENT
YOCHANAN 8:58
Y'shua said to them, "Amen, amen I say to you that before Awraham existed, I was!"
I thought you might find it of interest as it conflicts with the Greek.
I believe that the spirit that was in Jesus, express image, was speaking through Jesus.
And that spirit was before the world was created.
keypurr
Well-known member
You sound like a broken record.
I do not recall saying the standard for being good does not come from God, if I did it was my error.
You did by asserting the first of the two options I gave you, which was "something (like humility) is good because God recognizes it as good."
Would you like to change your answer to the second option, which is "something is good because God commands that it is good"?
It still says that Jesus existed prior to Abraham, which is not possible if Jesus is just a human.
Believing something doesn't make it so, Keypurr.
One God. He is three Persons.