Interpretation

Prizebeatz1

New member
New Agers like to season their utterances with capital plundered from Scripture to make it seem they are walking the same paths as those that are actually Christians. These words also serve to sooth the cognitive dissonance of the rationalizations they are making, since, well, they were once just like you and me a few years ago, but have now moved to a different level of enlightenment.

"...the devil." Please be specific. Who or what is the devil to you?

An actual spiritual being that once was in heaven?
A conceptualization of "badness"?
A negative source of energy?

AMR

The devil to me is the personality. It is not an enemy that needs to be defeated. We just need to see and understand how it gives the illusion that we are separate from God. Failure to understand the enemy is failure to understand ourselves and our relationship to God.
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
Whether you realize it or not, you're headed for eternal damnation.
You seem to have rejected the Gospel for your spiritualist belief
system. You're a run of the mill "New-Ager." Another word for, 'Lost
Soul.'

I've already learned the tricks of the adversary. Eternal damnation is anything outside of the here and now. God, heaven and salvation are found nowhere else. Make no mistake about this. Notice how the enemy lures us away with bait by trying to get us to focus on the future or the past. Falling for the trap of getting stuck in time is a nasty trick. Don't buy it.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
It's funny how when Jesus came he turned everything upside down. It is not an accident that the soul does the same.

Explain what you just said?

I see. So epistemological warrant behind something offered up as a truth statement is nothing but the freedom to say whatever pops into that noggin of yours in support of your freedom to exercise your newly made religion?


AMR

Which means what exactly? Do you have some scriptural support for that declaration?


:popcorn:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I see. So epistemological warrant behind something offered up as a truth statement is nothing but the freedom to say whatever pops into that noggin of yours in support of your freedom to exercise your newly made religion?

In other words, you are just making things up as you go along this path you are walking and presumably, per your own words, were "called" to (by what or who, I can only imagine).

I am beginning to see now that even responding to you is only serving to embolden you in your own self-delusional notions. I am quite sure if you ever printed out the word salad you have been posting, gathered a random sampling of twenty grownups at a coffee shop and read your posts to them, the uncomfortable silence and sideways glances they would all be giving one another afterwards would perhaps be the whack against your head that is needed to bring you back to the solid ground you are floating above.

You want to be slippery and evasive, appealing to your own authority as the captain of your own destiny. Rather than to continue giving you a platform to go on more foolishly, I am going to withdraw. I will leave you to your own little corner with the other moonbeam folk of TOL gushing over Urantia, crystals, and other oddities.

AMR

Yep...he's a total waste of time. :wave:
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
The correct interpretation of the scriptures comes from the Holy Spirit...which is why the natural man doesn't understand spiritual things, and all his interpretations are no more than vain imaginings.

The Holy Spirit depends on time and is conditional. That is how we know it is man-made. The soul is one with timelessness and is unconditional. That is how we know it is of God.
 

Nameless.In.Grace

BANNED
Banned
Ignoring all my other on point observations of your position that go without a response as you continue to move the goal posts each time...

Truth is what the Triune God knows, as all truth is the God's truth, since God is the metaphysical foundation of all that is true. Hence, truth should equal, represent, and match the way things really are, that is, reality. That is, truth corresponds to objective reality—what God says it is—not opinion.

Reality is the way things really are—for God so declared our reality—independent of human subjective experience and man-made conventions. This reality does not rule out the need for subjective application of truth in one's life. In other words, truth is discovered, not invented.

I am not implying that man knows all truth perfectly or does not have to work very hard at comprehending it. Furthermore, anyone denying the reality of truth has made a self-defeating statement.

What we know is directly connected to God's revelation. We can exercise our God-given rational capacities, through empirical observation, including science, and from understanding and reflecting upon God's unique propositional revelation—Scripture. Whether one is a rationalist (priority to reason) or an empiricist (priority to the five senses), we can trust properly functioning senses or reasoning minds because God serves as the necessary epistemological ground of both.

At this point we may ask, "What is knowledge?"

Knowledge is properly justified true belief.

Examine the statement in reverse.

belief - No one can know something unless he or she believes it. For example, we cannot know Jesus is Lord unless we believe it.

true - We can only know things that are true. A person may think he knows something to be true, but, in fact, be wrong. Or a person may know of something false that is indeed false. But this person can only actually and authentically know something if it is indeed true.

justified - We can believe something to be true—that is in fact true—but this would not constitute knowledge if it lacks a proper justification. For example, a wild guess that ends up being correct would not be knowledge, for knowledge involves some sort of confirmation or evidence, that is, proper justification. Here I speak of what philosophers call foundationalism. From foundationalism, we may claim that beliefs that stand on their own without appealing to other convictions for justification are called properly basic beliefs. Beliefs are properly basic when they are either self-evident (true on the face of it), logically necessary, inescapable, or incorrigible (expressing an immediate state of consciousness).

So we can state that knowledge means believing what is true with proper justification. We must further state that human reason cannot reveal anything, but it can defend what has been revealed by the Truth-Maker, the Triune God.

Despite the preceding we must recognize that man's knowledge is limited and affected by sin. Our noetic (cognitive and/or belief forming) faculties are to some degree impaired by sin and thus, so is our intelligence and rationality. This is a debated topic among theologians, some arguing that the noetic effects of sin relate moreso to our moral nature than our cognitive. While sin impacts us for the worse, it is still warranted to claim that the laws of logic (principles of correct reasoning) are not impacted. This means to me that these laws remain cognitively necessary, ontologically real, and irrefutable. Again, I caution here that I am not advocating that the laws of logic can bring about a proper relationship with God. Indeed, we require God's grace to soften our hearts, illuminate our minds, and incline our wills to believe.

We are finite creatures, so unlike God, we have limitations in our essence, our being, with regard to knowledge and rational comprehension. This means that pure rationalism (all things can be discovered through human reasoning and logic) is impossible. We may know things, but we cannot know things as God knows things.

Despite the claims of some believers with good intentions of defending the faith, who argue that faith is a "leap", I claim there are four reasons supporting that our faith involves knowledge and is compatible with reason.
(1) There is an objective source and foundation for knowledge, reason, and rationality—a personal and rational Triune God.
(2) Christian truth claims do not violate the basic laws and principles of reason.
(3) Scripture teaches us to seek knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and the values of discernment, testing, and reflection are promoted in Scripture.
(4) The truths of our faith also correspond to and are supported by evidence, facts, and reason.

AMR

There are no isms in these words of yours. I gleaned much from its reading.

Respect.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
The Christ-story is Man's story of salvation, sanctification, exaltation.........

The Christ-story is Man's story of salvation, sanctification, exaltation.........

Jesus is a metaphor for the soul.

Yes, the archetypal, prototypal man, the Second or Last Adam, the Adam Kadmon. - Jesus as the Son of God & Son of God represents the genesis and perfection(destiny) of both man and God as one, in divine marriage. This is why Paul in his inner gnostic insight wished the Christ to be formed in us, and that 'Christ' in us, is the hope of glory (the full flowering of divinity in humanity). 'Christ' is the love, light, anointing, divinity of 'God' informing the soul of man.

The whole Jesus experience is one of the divine soul being born into human form, being individualized, experiencing the full breadth of human experience and living thru various personalities, dying to the carnal self ('crucifixion'), being buried ('baptism'), rising again ('rebirth/resurrection'), then ascending, which is the transformation process of all humanity in its ascension Godward. These universal truth teachings and esoteric principles go back from ancient times as the Ancient Wisdom (theosophy).

Hence, the 'Christ-story' is man's own mythological, spiritual, figurative journey of birth, death and rebirth. This was also typified by the ancient pagan teachings which associate Jesus as the 'Sun' of God, much being a solar based theology/mythology, a solar logos (deity-source), and a respect for Mother Earth (the Goddess) whose natural cycles depict man's own transformation, via winter, spring, summer and fall. The laws and principles of Nature are universal and true as we observe them so that these material realities mirror the invisible world so we can see these as 'archetypal language symbols'. That's all this is,...hence the 'Christ-story' really only has value and meaning as we become the Christ! - being 'in Christ' is engaging fully with the divine spirit within in the transformation process, as our own birth, death, burial, resurrection and ascension in the Light. A mere objective literal religious worship as Jesus as an idol or even personality is not sufficient on its own to effect the full power of what the Christ-story is to impart and inspire in man's religious life which inspires one to live the Christ-life! A closer inspection in Paul's gnostic theology and spiritual teaching dives deeper into the mystical life of Jesus or that deeper communion of being "in Christ", so its really all about abiding in the Spirit (God-consciousness) then letting the Spirit inspire the proper translations and interpreations of spirit for the soul's learning.

For more on esoteric insights into 'The Ascension' see my former post in John's other thread here :)
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
Pure absolute reality is what is ever at the heart of all existence,...it is ever-present, all-pervading and all-inclusive :)

Now any and all 'interpretation' must be a distortion, differentiated 'translation' of information since its information being transformed to some degree or variation thru 'translation'. Therefore,...all 'interpretation' or 'translation' suffers some degree of 'distortion' on some level or dimension.

As to your iniquires, of course we ought always be open to receive or perceive a better, more accurate or tenable 'interpretation' of anything, that is if we are serious about getting to the truth of any matter, or really engaged in the process of 'learning'. Otherwise we cannot learn or grow if we refuse to be educated by life in its spiritual purpose, or understand the deeper religious meanings and values at the heart of life in our human experience.

I'm actually learning something new from your contribution. Thank you. What you said about distortion is huge. Now that I know that I think I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board, LOL.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Broad questions, but good ones to dig into. Short of God blessing you with all the answers, you are with the majority of us who must study, debate, and struggle with these theological issues to find truth. It is a life time journey with its ups and downs, and much prayer. None of us has all the right answers, nor any given church group. I personally do not think this is a bad thing - I believe that this is part of what it means to worship God, to love him with all your heart, soul and mind.

For me, what makes one interpretation better than another is that it is able to better consolidate all of what scripture has to say on a given topic. Where applicable, it is also better if it is able to better match Church History, archeology, etc. Generally, however, scripture alone is sufficient for most topics.

We can say that a given interpretation better consolidates all of the scriptures on a given topic if that interpretation is 1. logically consistent, 2. has fewer/no conflicts with scripture that need to be explained away, and 3. relies on less/no extra-biblical philosophical constructs as a basis for such explanations except where clearly justified.

As an example of the last point, the early Church Fathers were highly influenced by Greek Philosopohy - being an integral part of their culture - and would often infuse it into their theology. Also, today companies publish gender-neutral bibles - sacrificing the integrity of the scriptures for their social agendas/philosophies.

An example of where an extra-biblical philosophical construct might be justified would be studying Culture and History at a corresponding place and time period with a given biblical passage and using it to help clarify what is meant. For example, corresponding the miracles in Exodus with the gods and holidays of Egypt.
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
Broad questions, but good ones to dig into. Short of God blessing you with all the answers, you are with the majority of us who must study, debate, and struggle with these theological issues to find truth. It is a life time journey with its ups and downs, and much prayer. None of us has all the right answers, nor any given church group. I personally do not think this is a bad thing - I believe that this is part of what it means to worship God, to love him with all your heart, soul and mind.

For me, what makes one interpretation better than another is that it is able to better consolidate all of what scripture has to say on a given topic. Where applicable, it is also better if it is able to better match Church History, archeology, etc. Generally, however, scripture alone is sufficient for most topics.

We can say that a given interpretation better consolidates all of the scriptures on a given topic if that interpretation is 1. logically consistent, 2. has fewer/no conflicts with scripture that need to be explained away, and 3. relies on less/no extra-biblical philosophical constructs as a basis for such explanations except where clearly justified.

As an example of the last point, the early Church Fathers were highly influenced by Greek Philosopohy - being an integral part of their culture - and would often infuse it into their theology. Also, today companies publish gender-neutral bibles - sacrificing the integrity of the scriptures for their social agendas/philosophies.

An example of where an extra-biblical philosophical construct might be justified would be studying Culture and History at a corresponding place and time period with a given biblical passage and using it to help clarify what is meant. For example, corresponding the miracles in Exodus with the gods and holidays of Egypt.

Interesting thoughts. What if the path to God is the reversal of all desires including the need to know the correct interpretation? What if the path included releasing all dependencies (mind, bible, science, faith, beliefs, thoughts, body, identity, personality) including dependency on being dependent? For me there was this tension that would build where I felt a part of me trying to squeeze and grab onto something as hard as it could. That contraction was my personality and identity fighting for survival. THAT resistance was the biggest obstacle to my awakening to the truth to which the scriptures were pointing.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Interesting thoughts. What if the path to God is the reversal of all desires including the need to know the correct interpretation? What if the path included releasing all dependencies (mind, bible, science, faith, beliefs, thoughts, body, identity, personality) including dependency on being dependent? For me there was this tension that would build where I felt a part of me trying to squeeze and grab onto something as hard as it could. That contraction was my personality and identity fighting for survival. THAT resistance was the biggest obstacle to my awakening to the truth to which the scriptures were pointing.

I suppose scripture would say very different things were it the case that reversal of all desires is what leads to God. May I assume that what you mean by the reversal of desire is rather the absence of desire?

This sounds very Buddhist, and in my studies thereof I have found Buddhism to be 180 degrees from Christianity. They are, at their core, incompatible with one another. The Christian focuses on God and love. The Buddhist says that the gods need Nirvana, and that to achieve it one must let go of all attachments - making love in the Christian sense impossible for them.

That said, you might like Eastern Orthodoxy, which is a bit more mystical and who - in theory - attempt to avoid interpreting the Word of God. To this end, in their services the scriptures are read in a very monotone voice - to avoid adding any inflection that might influence your understanding thereof.
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
I suppose scripture would say very different things were it the case that reversal of all desires is what leads to God. May I assume that what you mean by the reversal of desire is rather the absence of desire?

This sounds very Buddhist, and in my studies thereof I have found Buddhism to be 180 degrees from Christianity. They are, at their core, incompatible with one another. The Christian focuses on God and love. The Buddhist says that the gods need Nirvana, and that to achieve it one must let go of all attachments - making love in the Christian sense impossible for them.

That said, you might like Eastern Orthodoxy, which is a bit more mystical and who - in theory - attempt to avoid interpreting the Word of God. To this end, in their services the scriptures are read in a very monotone voice - to avoid adding any inflection that might influence your understanding thereof.

I suppose it all depends on interpretation. Jesus does say he who tries to save their life will lose it. I'd like to multiply that statement to the 3rd power. Yes it was the letting go of the need to hang on to anything at all that brought me to the realization that the narrow gate was what I thought to be hell but it was the reverse.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
I suppose it all depends on interpretation. Jesus does say he who tries to save their life will lose it. I'd like to multiply that statement to the 3rd power. Yes it was the letting go of the need to hang on to anything at all that brought me to the realization that the narrow gate was what I thought to be hell but it was the reverse.

What Christ meant when he said that you must lose your life to save it is that you must let go of your worldly life, your old life, and instead devote yourself to doing God's will. Scripture nowhere speaks of letting go of all desires - but is rather quite clear that love is the basis of all we do. Love for God and our fellowman are the two greatest commandments respectively. God himself is said to be love. Paul puts it best in 1 Cor 13:

1 Cor 13:1-13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
What Christ meant when he said that you must lose your life to save it is that you must let go of your worldly life, your old life, and instead devote yourself to doing God's will. Scripture nowhere speaks of letting go of all desires - but is rather quite clear that love is the basis of all we do. Love for God and our fellowman are the two greatest commandments respectively. God himself is said to be love. Paul puts it best in 1 Cor 13:

1 Cor 13:1-13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


I agree with that too but I found out the worldly life includes the personality, the sense of identity, the image of being a handsome young black man, a Christian, a Catholic, a father, a hard-working employee, a musician, a champion track runner, etc. It included things I didn't even know I was holding onto like my mind, my thoughts, my body, the tensions in my body, my resistance to avoiding emptiness, the avoidance of feelings of shame and guilt, old beliefs, patterns and compulsions, family life. I saw the unconscious pleasure I derived from having a foundation in religion and the need to know that I would get to heaven. All of that and more were symptoms of me trying to avoid lack of self-worth. I didn't even know that could be a problem. I thought I could get self-worth from outside of me and it wasn't until I went down to the darkest, deepest and blackest depths and felt everything I was trying to avoid feeling in their entire fullness that I came to realize that I was one with infinite, eternal and unconditional value.
 
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