ECT If God healed you while you were living in open sin . .

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

If abiding sin (to whatever degree and in whatever form - insidious or manifest) is presupposed in every believer, what are we to conclude about the ministry of the Holy Spirit ?

By the hypostasis of faith which came by hearing God's Rhema (which is the resulting flow of His pre-creational divine substance), the hypostasis is translated into hypostatic union with the ascended Christ.

Since Jesus was the ultimate distribution (nomos - law) of God's righteousness, both the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants ceased in Him AS the new covenant. Since the law ceased in Christ and the hypostasis is translated into Christ, and there's no sin imputed where there is no law; there's no sin imputed to the hypostasis.

The sin is in the members of the reckoned-dead prosopon and the physis (nature) of the ousia (being), and a Believer is to be working out salvation from the inner man to the outer man by the faith of the Son of God. The old man is not who we are, and it's hypostatically ontological imputed righteousness rather than merely forensic.

One mustn't put new wine (the Holy Spirit) in old wineskins (the old prosopon). It'll burst. We must be IN Christ with Him in us, and us in the Father. The Holy Spirit is in us because we're to be in Christ, in whom is the Spirit.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
John 16:7-11

Do we conclude, then, that the only sin the Holy Spirit is after is that of unbelief?

Not as you understand. ALL sin, including the height of sin as a propped-up self-righteous Judeo-Christian ethic as man's own Neo-Judaistic effort of works according to a standard of righteousness that is not the fulfillment of the law in Christ.

Sin isn't just the inner and outer acting and actions. The source is believing false rhema. Sin IS unbelief. No sin is anything BUT unbelief's result in the heart, mind, and members.

To perceive sin only as acting, actions, and acts is to miss the source OF sin. Belief in a false rhema, and thus unbelief in God's. Sin IS faithlessness.

If you then say that that sin is at the root of all manifestations of sin (again - insidious or blatant), then should we interpret James 5:15 to refer to all sins of unbelief or the manifestations that characterize the underlying unbelief? Does the Holy Spirit not work to reveal this even in unbelievers?

God dispenses His grace to whom He will. Gotta understand that sin IS wrong belief, dead belief, unbelief; manifesting in the heart and mind for all thought, choice, feeling, desire, speech, and action.

We ARE what we believe. It's our very existence. Our hypostasis is determined by the hypostasis of whatever rhema we hear. And that determines the quality of our physis (nature) and thus our ousia (being); all determining our prosopon as our outer presence and appearance.

Resurrection for the whole man in this physical life and beyond. That's the ministry of the Holy Spirit in us. We are the prosopon for the Holy Spirit on the earth. The visible Church. His Betrothed Bride, married in all but flesh.

There SHOULD come a day in all Believers' lives when sin ceases them because God's Logos is all they believe and ARE on this earth. (1Peter 4:1)

 

[Truster]

I am, too. . . and can go back further in mine than you can yours.

For once you seem to be right. You can go back to the day you were born and you are still in that state. I can only go back until 10:30 am 17th July 1999.

 

[Word based mystic]

For once you seem to be right. You can go back to the day you were born and you are still in that state. I can only go back until 10:30 am 17th July 1999.

insults do not support your argument.

just shows the weakness of argument.

 

[john w]

Neither. Let me try this:

If you were a Christian living in adultery and found out you were terminally ill and asked for prayer and God healed you, would it not say to you it is OK to stay in your adulterous affair?

If you were a Christian living "bad thoughts,"and found out you were terminally ill and asked for prayer and God healed you, would it not say to you it is OK to stay in your "bad thoughts?"


Wait: "Let me try this:"




If you were a Christian, and when you have a bad thought, which you have every day, and found out you were terminally ill and asked for prayer and God healed you, would it not say to you it is OK to stay in your daily "bad thoughts?"

EOT.CLOSED.DOA.RIP.

 

[nikolai_42]

By the hypostasis of faith which came by hearing God's Rhema (which is the resulting flow of His pre-creational divine substance), the hypostasis is translated into hypostatic union with the ascended Christ.

Since Jesus was the ultimate distribution (nomos - law) of God's righteousness, both the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants ceased in Him AS the new covenant. Since the law ceased in Christ and the hypostasis is translated into Christ, and there's no sin imputed where there is no law; there's no sin imputed to the hypostasis.

The sin is in the members of the reckoned-dead prosopon and the physis (nature) of the ousia (being), and a Believer is to be working out salvation from the inner man to the outer man by the faith of the Son of God. The old man is not who we are, and it's hypostatically ontological imputed righteousness rather than merely forensic.

One mustn't put new wine (the Holy Spirit) in old wineskins (the old prosopon). It'll burst. We must be IN Christ with Him in us, and us in the Father. The Holy Spirit is in us because we're to be in Christ, in whom is the Spirit.



Not as you understand. ALL sin, including the height of sin as a propped-up self-righteous Judeo-Christian ethic as man's own Neo-Judaistic effort of works according to a standard of righteousness that is not the fulfillment of the law in Christ.

Sin isn't just the inner and outer acting and actions. The source is believing false rhema. Sin IS unbelief. No sin is anything BUT unbelief's result in the heart, mind, and members.

To perceive sin only as acting, actions, and acts is to miss the source OF sin. Belief in a false rhema, and thus unbelief in God's. Sin IS faithlessness.



God dispenses His grace to whom He will. Gotta understand that sin IS wrong belief, dead belief, unbelief; manifesting in the heart and mind for all thought, choice, feeling, desire, speech, and action.

We ARE what we believe. It's our very existence. Our hypostasis is determined by the hypostasis of whatever rhema we hear. And that determines the quality of our physis (nature) and thus our ousia (being); all determining our prosopon as our outer presence and appearance.

Resurrection for the whole man in this physical life and beyond. That's the ministry of the Holy Spirit in us. We are the prosopon for the Holy Spirit on the earth. The visible Church. His Betrothed Bride, married in all but flesh.

There SHOULD come a day in all Believers' lives when sin ceases them because God's Logos is all they believe and ARE on this earth. (1Peter 4:1)

What I understand of your response, I agree with (I think...). Essentially you are saying that the inner man is rendered sinless by more than a mere accounting act (but less than full imputation?). The Word (I won't distinguish between Rhema and Logos here even though I recognize there is a difference) coming in power precipitates (sublimates? creates?) that regenerate state of being in a man. As that inner man is really and actually "in Christ" there is no sin. But as the hypostasis of the inner man and the outer man present a non-homogenous whole, sin is still present.

I have no quarrel with the manifestations of sin in the physical members being results of unbelief. But whereas you seem to be defining things to the nth degree, I don't see scripture doing that in such a way as to isolate definitions. So when I read James 5:15, I can recognize that the "sins" being spoken of are outworkings of unbelief. But I can also recognize that scripture says that anything (of itself) that is not of faith is sin. So it not only covers the origin (unbelief) but the outer representation. Root (unbelief) and branch (external manifestation) can be - as I read scripture - both referred to as "sin". The one who is healed and receives forgiveness may well receive a clearing of one's self (not just some specific manifestation of sin). But that doesn't mean that specific areas of unbelief are not treated independently by the Holy Spirit.

As long as you aren't limiting "unbelief" to patterns of thought or understanding - but recognize it as systemic to existence (of the outer man), I don't see where I have any real contention with what you have said. My point was mainly to say that the Holy Spirit does, in fact, deal with us in terms of specific manifestations - even if the roots are all (one in) the same (thing).

And absolutely - there should be a day in which all sin ceases in the believer's being.

 

[Nick M]

The Eternal Father will not allow His regenerate child to remain in spiritual or physical adultery.

Galatians

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?


Romans 8

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

What I understand of your response, I agree with (I think...). Essentially you are saying that the inner man is rendered sinless by more than a mere accounting act (but less than full imputation?). The Word (I won't distinguish between Rhema and Logos here even though I recognize there is a difference) coming in power precipitates (sublimates? creates?) that regenerate state of being in a man. As that inner man is really and actually "in Christ" there is no sin. But as the hypostasis of the inner man and the outer man present a non-homogenous whole, sin is still present.

Yes, this is a good functional summary.

(Full imputation of righteousness to our underlying substantial reality as subsistence for existence... our hypostasis. The new creature. The righteousness of God IN Christ. The old man is dead, reckoned so by faith.)

I have no quarrel with the manifestations of sin in the physical members being results of unbelief. But whereas you seem to be defining things to the nth degree, I don't see scripture doing that in such a way as to isolate definitions. So when I read James 5:15, I can recognize that the "sins" being spoken of are outworkings of unbelief.

Yes, but behavior modification is the usual course of action, which is just law methodology stengthening the sin. The only means of self-control on any level is by renewing of the mind (another logos by faith about everything).

All outworked sin/s from unbelief must be dealt with at the source. Sin should cease us (passive grammar) as in 1Peter 4:1. That only comes as we live by the faith of the Son of God; our faith translalting us hypostatically, but His faith actually being on the other side of physical death and us in His prosopon.

But I can also recognize that scripture says that anything (of itself) that is not of faith is sin. So it not only covers the origin (unbelief) but the outer representation. Root (unbelief) and branch (external manifestation) can be - as I read scripture - both referred to as "sin". The one who is healed and receives forgiveness may well receive a clearing of one's self (not just some specific manifestation of sin). But that doesn't mean that specific areas of unbelief are not treated independently by the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.

As long as you aren't limiting "unbelief" to patterns of thought or understanding - but recognize it as systemic to existence (of the outer man), I don't see where I have any real contention with what you have said.

Fair enough, and true. The epidemic is the inverse, where only a handful of horrific acts are considered sin on any level that gets attention. Fornication and homosexuality and murder, etc. are sin, but the rampant "smaller and acceptable" things AND self-righteous pristine Judeo-Christian ethics are the widespread standard for conduct.

It's all sin because of false/un- belief.

My point was mainly to say that the Holy Spirit does, in fact, deal with us in terms of specific manifestations - even if the roots are all (one in) the same (thing).

And absolutely - there should be a day in which all sin ceases in the believer's being.

:luigi:

That's the promise of the Gospel. Not an indulgent blind eye and a wink from God about everything except murder, rape, stab, steal. Church attendance and activity can be sin if not of faith. ANYTHING can be sin, even if it COULD and SHOULD be of faith. One's entire life can be nothing but fulfilling the law, but by the works of the law shall no man be justified.

Living in "open sin" can be constant benevolent works that COULD be of faith but aren't. It doesn't have to be adultery or something heinous. It can be the pervasive pride of insecurity and performance for acceptance and appearance. Like teaching a Sunday School class or preaching or giving blankets to the homeless or feeding the hungry... or gluttony or electronic device addiction... or murder. Same thing.

 

[newbirth]

Since virtually no one even knows what sin (hamartia and hamartiai articular and anarthrous, hamartano, or hamartema) IS, this question is fallacious and irrelevant.

Most professing Believers are living in many kinds of "open sin" as their alleged pristine Judeo-Christian ethic, so singling out some egregious area of action is a distraction from all sin and its source... false beliefs from hearing, thinking, choosing, feeling, desiring, saying, doing, and being according to a false logos.

This thread topic is self-righteousness, presuming only the depth of sin is sin. The propped-up false appearances of most alleged Believers is the height of sin while harboring all manner of sin in the heart.

everyone knows what sin is....

Hebrews 10:15-17King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Romans 7:6-8King James Version (KJV)

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes, this is a good functional summary.

(Full imputation of righteousness to our underlying substantial reality as subsistence for existence... our hypostasis. The new creature. The righteousness of God IN Christ. The old man is dead, reckoned so by faith.)

. . and If faith gives out within the son of man to such a degree, the Son of God within him, the new born of Him, is rendered defeated which is why Jesus Christ is highly exalted. He won such a battle that would have rendered humankind unredeemable had He failed.

 

[OCTOBER23]

GOD DOES NOT HEAL YOU BUT INSTEAD MAKES YOUR FAITH STRONGER BY ALLOWING

YOU TO BE SICK BECAUSE SICKNESS KEEPS YOU CONTINUOUSLY FAITHFUL TO GOD.

--ONLY DEMONS WILL COME ALONG AND HEAL YOU IN ORDER FOR YOU TO FALL

AWAY LATER

 

[Cross Reference]

everyone knows what sin is....

Hebrews 10:15-17King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Romans 7:6-8King James Version (KJV)

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Only for the one who lives by the Spirit __ Rom.8:1. That makes it sortta conditional, doesn't it?

 

[elohiym]

He would not allow one of His regenerate children to continue in adultery.

Does He allow you to continue in any sin? If yes, why?

 

[newbirth]

If you were a Christian living "bad thoughts,"and found out you were terminally ill and asked for prayer and God healed you, would it not say to you it is OK to stay in your "bad thoughts?"


Wait: "Let me try this:"




If you were a Christian, and when you have a bad thought, which you have every day, and found out you were terminally ill and asked for prayer and God healed you, would it not say to you it is OK to stay in your daily "bad thoughts?"

EOT.CLOSED.DOA.RIP.

no one in Christ can have bad thoughts...James is clear....if you are having bad thoughts you are already drawn away from Christ........
he who is in Christ does not sin and cannot sin...sin happens when one is drawn away from Christ by their own lust and enticed

James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[nikolai_42]

no one in Christ can have bad thoughts...James is clear....if you are having bad thoughts you are already drawn away from Christ........
he who is in Christ does not sin and cannot sin...sin happens when one is drawn away from Christ by their own lust and enticed

James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So are you saying temptation = sin?

 

[newbirth]

Only for the one who lives by the Spirit __ Rom.8:1. That makes it sortta conditional, doesn't it?

I don't understand your response...I was responding to a comment that people don't know what sin is...the HS reproves the world of sin....God's words does not return to him void...it is the HS through preaching that makes men know they are sinners I get the feeling you are implying that only those who live by the Spirit will know what sin is

 

[elohiym]

So are you saying temptation = sin?

I do.

Are you tempted to steal? Then surely you must covet something. Ergo, you can't be tempted to steal without coveting first.

 

[nikolai_42]

I don't understand your response...I was responding to a comment that people don't know what sin is...the HS reproves the world of sin....God's words does not return to him void...it is the HS through preaching that makes men know they are sinners I get the feeling you are implying that only those who live by the Spirit will know what sin is

Jumping in real quickly here...I was reading a 19th century church historian (I think he was Lutheran?) who essentially asserted that the idea of sin (as Christianity defines it and we understand it today) was not really an issue for most people. Their alienation from their god(s) was not because they were sinners and their god was (or gods were) more righteous, but rather a sense that they were removed from them and simply had more power. When Jesus said the Holy Spirit would reprove the world of sin, I get the sense that even that basic understanding that sin existed (and separated man from God) was being conveyed to the whole world. Before that, Israel was (as far as I know) the only people who had such a conception of sin (via the Law of God).

 

[nikolai_42]

I do.

Are you tempted to steal? Then surely you must covet something. Ergo, you can't be tempted to steal without coveting first.

I don't believe it's that simple. I believe that there is a difference between a thought and an intent and we can know the difference by the work of the Holy Spirit. Or rather, that whatever passes through the heart can be judged sinful or not only by the discernment of the Word.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

It can't really be well-defined in words, but God makes sure we know it when we see it. Suppose, for example, you have a dream that you kill someone. Are you guilty of anything? Or you have a dream wherein you covet something (or someone)...does that make you guilty? If so, why? Was it a conscious sin? If it is a sin (and clearly not conscious), what does that say about man's desire to please God?

 

[john w]

..no one in Christ can have bad thoughts...James is clear....if you are having bad thoughts you are already drawn away from Christ........

Made up.Or, you are not convicted, as you, and everyone, has bad thoughts every day.

 

[john w]

...he who is in Christ does not sin and cannot sin

Those passages, that reference in "inability" to sin, are not written about me, or any other member of the boc. It's a reference to those, in the future, who, being "born again," in resurrected bodies, and spiritually regenerated, will have the capacity to "not sin."